Episode 19

₿HS019: Deanna and Joel Are Building an Alternative to State Indoctrination

SHOW TOPIC:  Independent thinking, teacher incentives, and AI's place in a homeschool curriculum

Deanna and Joel are building the future they want to see.  The decline in our education system has compounded year after year for over a century.  It is too corrupt to fix from the inside.  This inspired them to start their own teaching business.  

With technology as a deflationary force, the cost of education should be decreasing and the quality should be increasing.  The opposite is happening.  Independent thought and critical thinking are sacrificed for the sake of conforming to approved narratives.  Listen to how this couple is fighting back by leaving the system and creating teaching content for Bitcoin homeschoolers.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU'LL LEARN:

·      Deanna and Joel share a passion for education and started a homeschool curriculum company.  They only work with Bitcoin families.

·      Lyceum Tutoring has on-demand courses for history, humanities, economics, literature and art history.

·      The negative trends in education including at the college level have been going on for many years

·      Improving writing skills helps students think better

·      IEW (Institute for Excellence in Writing) is program Tali used to help teach her kids.  It was the exact opposite of the way Tali had been taught in college (which was to dumb down everything).

·      Joel and Deanna are horrified (but not surprised) hearing about how Scott and Tali’s daughter was directed to write an opinion paper as a college freshman.

·      Before you spend money on your kid’s college, ask what they really need for their chosen career field

·      The trades have many training programs

·      Most things CAN be learned by ANYONE.  Avoid the false narrative that “I’m just not good in math” etc.

·      Charlotte Mason method is a popular homeschool philosophy.  Using “living books” is an example of this method.

·      Use original, unabridged works as much as possible

·      Little to zero benefit of labelling reading abilities by grade

·      Debating incentives versus laziness of public-school teachers and college professors

·      Losing meritocracy … The trend with college students being graded by their fellow college students

·      With technology as a deflationary force, the cost of education should be decreasing and the quality should be increasing.  The opposite is happening.

·      AI is just a tool.  It can be used for good, e.g., as a brain-storming partner when writing a book.

·      Don’t be afraid of AI.  In fact, embrace it.  It’s best to incorporate it into homeschool curriculum.

·      Project Gutenberg is great resource for homeschoolers.  It is a library of over 70,000 free e-books.

·      Deanna is working on her new book, “Shells to Satoshi, the Story of Money”.  Joel is working a romance novel set in El Salvador amongst Bitcoin expats.

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

HAPPY TO HELP:

  • Tali's Twitter @OrangeHatterPod
  • Scott's Twitter @ScottLindberg93
  • Scott's nostr npub19jkuyl0wgrj8kccqzh2vnseeql9v98ptrx407ca9qjsrr4x5j9tsnxx0q6
  • Free Market Kids' Twitter @FreeMarketKids
  • Orange Pill App @FreeMarketKids
  • Free Market Kids' games including HODL UP https://www.freemarketkids.com/collections/games

WAYS TO SUPPORT:

We are essentially our own sponsors and are so grateful for all of you who support this show.  Thank you!

STANDING RESOURCE RECOMMENDATIONS:


Mentioned in this episode:

Aleia Free Market Kids Full

Transcript
Joel Deanna:

You can definitely see it.

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I have a lot of old

textbooks over 100 years old.

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You look at the fourth grade level and

it's about a ninth grade level today.

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this idea of the 30 or more

person classroom in which the

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incentives are driven to have

the teachers teach to the middle.

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I walked away from a really nice,

cushy retirement and salary and started

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working with homeschool students

because I realized I had to get them

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earlier in order to make the difference

that I wanted to in education.

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They're willing to submit because they've

delegated their independent thought.

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I thought I could fix the

system from the inside.

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And I realized it's just too corrupt,

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Tali: Welcome, Joel and Deanna

to Bitcoin Homeschoolers.

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We're so excited to chat with

you, especially about your

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expertise in teaching writing.

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I have so many questions for you.

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Welcome to the show.

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Joel Deanna: Thank you.

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We're excited to be here.

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Tali: So cool.

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Scott: Yeah.

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So as

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Tali: by way of introduction, Scott

and I met Joel and Deanna in El

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Salvador a few months ago and we

clicked right away because we can

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talk homeschooling all day long.

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Scott: For the listeners, if you

could give the elevator speech of your

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backgrounds, and just a glimpse, maybe

an interesting story, if you want, on

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what inspired you to go down this route.

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Joel Deanna: All right.

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I'll start with my background.

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So I'm a homeschool advocate by marriage.

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Deanna and I started a homeschool

curriculum company several years ago.

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In Seattle and we both

wrote a lot of the curriculum

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I come from a tech background

and and we we both.

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Do share this passion for education.

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We've also seen that education has

has taken a great turn for the worse.

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So I am following Deanna on this journey.

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I'm helping her write some of the

curriculum and and helping her with with

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some of her latest writing projects.

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And I'm currently doing

some teaching of my own.

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I'm currently teaching some music

lessons to some of the kids here in El

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Salvador and and I have also taught from

our, the curriculum that we developed.

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Okay I'm Deanna and so I have

a long history in education.

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I was a college, a tenured

professor of humanities.

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And I have a background in history

and anthropology, so I taught

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history, humanities, and anthropology

for years on the college level.

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In 2017, I walked away from a really

nice, cushy retirement and salary

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and started working with homeschool

students because I realized I had to

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get them earlier in order to make the

difference that I wanted to in education.

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I was in California, and, I was

teaching a class on ancient Greece

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and Rome, and I was going to get

fired because I wasn't teaching about

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African Americans or people of color.

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I was getting complaints

and this was in:

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So this what's been going on in

education has been there for a long time.

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I left and interestingly enough, I

had gotten a doctorate of education

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a year before because I thought I

could fix the system from the inside.

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And I realized it's just too

corrupt, so I had to leave it

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in order to make the impact.

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So I became a homeschool advocate.

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We wrote the curriculum like what Joel

said, and I started privately teaching

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and tutoring homeschool students.

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Also students that went to private and

public school, and I continue to work with

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students from public and private school,

but homeschool students are by far my

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favorite students to work with because

they still are curious, they still are

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passionate, and they still want to learn.

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And Those are all things that I've

felt my whole life, so I just try to

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stick with them as much as possible.

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And I've taught history, humanities, but

I do teach a lot of writing, actually work

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with the Writing Center out in New York.

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Still, even though I live in El

Salvador, and I do a lot with writing

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because writing helps you think better.

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And I try to explain that.

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So I teach everything from

second grade to high school.

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And just another note about writing

is that I think we both strongly

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believe that writing is not just nice

to have, it's indispensable because

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that it is the application of thought.

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You can you can go through your lessons

and you can learn knowledge, but

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until you attempt to articulate it by

writing, then you don't really know it.

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So that's why writing is indispensable.

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Scott: See, I

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Tali: agree with that concept, but

I really disagree with the way that

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it's being used in schools nowadays.

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Shall we go into that or should we stick

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Scott: example?

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Bring it out, you

started the, you're gonna

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Joel Deanna: Oh yeah.

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Let's bring out all the

frustration and pain.

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Scott: So

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Tali: here's a, here's an example I

would like to, I would like to share.

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So When I was homeschooling

the kids, I used IEW,

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Scott: IEW.

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Tali: and IEW was the first time that

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Scott: was ever taught,

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Tali: I was learning it with the kids

that I was ever taught that you needed to

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use very descriptive verbs and the more

descriptive the better picture you paint.

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So I thought that made a huge

difference for me because when I went

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to college, What they told me was

to use the simplest word possible.

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So if I used a verb they didn't like,

like if I said dashed somewhere, they

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would say, Oh, that's too complicated.

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Cross it out.

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Say go like it was exactly the

opposite of what I was trying to do.

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Dumb down every single word.

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Don't use 10 words.

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Use five words in a sentence.

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Every sentence was short.

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Every sentence was very simplified.

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So I agree with that part of writing

like use Words that are descriptive

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paint a vivid picture and form

well thought out sentences, right?

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It does everything doesn't have to

be dumbed down to second grade level.

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However, the other part of writing

that I really disagree with is

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what's happening at the college

level right now with my kids.

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So my daughter sent me a copy of

her writing that was for freshman

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writing requirement class.

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And she was supposed to have an opinion.

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She was supposed to write a two

page opinion about A movie that

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she was assigned to watch, but

she wasn't allowed to give her

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opinion about the movie directly.

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She had to state her opinion and find

the sources from all kinds of other

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people who had the same opinion, cite

them, and then at the very end of

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the paper, say, this is my opinion.

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I read her paper, honestly.

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and

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I had no idea what her opinion was

because the whole thing was just citation.

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The whole paper was citation.

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So

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I don't understand what kind of thinking

is being encouraged in that process.

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If it's an opinion piece,

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Scott: write the opinion,

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Tali: your own opinion, support it with

thoughtful Statements or reasons and then

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concluded, but in her case, she was not

allowed to stay her opinion unless it

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was supported by other people's opinions.

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Joel Deanna: So That's horrifying.

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It is horrifying, but it's not

surprising and I've actually heard

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things like this, particularly in

some of the social science departments

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that, at the college that I taught at.

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And what's The issue there is that

they're not being asked to think anymore.

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They are actually encouraged not to

think independently on the college level.

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And that is universal, which is why

I'm not a fan of college anymore.

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I tell parents, before you spend the money

on college, you really need to think about

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what your child wants to do for a living.

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And if there's any other way

for them to navigate a course

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into that, then go that route.

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Whether it's apprenticeships

or internships.

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Or whatever the case may be taking,

free MOOC classes on Udemy or whatever.

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Or the trades.

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Or go into the trades, yeah.

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Who are so starving for labor that

they have an endless number of training

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programs, whether it's through private

organizations or through the unions.

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There are so many different avenues.

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Yeah.

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And so in terms of

writing, I'm a registered.

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IEW teacher and I use it

with the writing center.

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So I've gone through their training.

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I know their program.

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I have my own opinion on it.

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I've written my own writing program.

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And it's, I think great for younger kids.

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I don't think they hit grammar correctly.

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And so I do a lot of integration of my

own stuff on teaching grammar with them.

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But it's a great start, and it's a good

foundation for younger kids, particularly

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with some of the theme based books.

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I think what's going on in colleges

is that, one, everybody who's

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teaching college came out of college.

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The decline in education over the

last hundred and fifty years, really

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particularly in the last hundred

years, You can definitely see it.

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I'm a book collector.

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I have a lot of old

textbooks over 100 years old.

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You look at the fourth grade level and

it's about a ninth grade level today.

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There's a decline in education, there's

a decline in thought, and those people

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that are now teaching college came out

of the college system on this decline.

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They don't know how to write,

they don't know how to think,

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and they don't know how to teach.

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And I'm just going to say it out there,

and that is a general statement, and

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there are a few good ones out there, but

those good ones, like myself, are leaving

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the system because it is so corrupt.

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So their students aren't

encouraged to think independently.

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They're not encouraged to write.

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Basically, what they're doing is check

boxing, and all of that stuff from No

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Child Left Behind way back in the day

that turned into Common Core, that is

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all trickled up to the college level.

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And it's really vile, can I just

add something to the the point

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about about independent thinking?

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This particular style of writing pedagogy,

where you're restricting the student

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from expressing independent thought.

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on their own, and you, and instead

of developing independent thought,

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you're requiring them to delegate

that thought to other sources.

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So what you're really doing

is teaching second handedness.

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You're teaching, not you're not

just ignoring independent thought.

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You are restricting Independent

thought you're banning independent

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thought so if that is the direction

if that is the main writing pedagogy

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day then you're teaching generations.

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Of willful or willing to comply

budding authoritarians, they're

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willing to submit because they've

delegated their independent thought.

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And these are the generations that

we're training for the workforce.

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Our culture.

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Tali: yeah.

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And I just want to add two.

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I want to throw two

other questions at you.

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One is the notion that writing

can be taught because when I went

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to my freshman writing class.

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The first day of class, the professor

went up to the front of the room and

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said, Some of you are born to write.

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Some of you are not.

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Only a few of you will get an A.

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And writing is a natural

ability you have or you don't.

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And I sat there looking at him

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Joel Deanna: why is this

guy getting paid then?

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That's the

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Tali: Yeah, why is

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Joel Deanna: teach it, then what's

his purpose for being there?

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Tali: exactly.

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And why am I there?

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Why am I required to sit through

a writing class if I'm doomed?

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If I'm not born with writing ability.

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So how would you answer that question?

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Joel Deanna: I am a big fan of Carol

Dweck and the idea of broke mindset.

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So I think most things can be learned.

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It's just how easy it comes to you.

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For instance, Joel's

now teaching me guitar.

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I've had one lesson.

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It was hard and I haven't gone back.

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I don't normally do things that are

come difficult for me because I just.

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Most people like to just do what comes

naturally, but I'm going to stick with

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it because it's something I want to do.

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It's the same with writing.

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It's the same with reading.

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I was teaching reading

skills on the college level.

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Reading and writing are

fundamental skills, right?

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Can I just underline this point?

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Deanna was teaching students

how to read in college, okay?

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So that's where we are with

the level of education.

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She's teaching college level kids to read.

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Yeah, and using the school, using a

program that was designed for middle

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school, where they started doing it

for college, and I went through several

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trainings to learn this process,

which I now use with second graders.

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Anyway the fact that he says

that you either can or can't, I

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think is an abomination and is

all academic ego on his part.

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He's lazy.

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He doesn't want to do, put in

the hard work and he's not going

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to demand it from his students.

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And so he's just written off what

he's actually there as a responsible

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teacher should be doing, in my opinion.

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And furthermore writing is a skill.

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It's a skill because there's a process.

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There are steps that you can

undertake in order to communicate

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ideas and articulate them.

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And if it weren't a process, if it

weren't a skill that could be developed,

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we wouldn't have School, like we would

not have a tradition of defining what

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these principles of writings are.

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This is patently ridiculous that anyone

could say that writing can't be taught.

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Just like any other skill, there

are steps, and the steps can

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be defined and communicated.

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Tali: Yeah, it just depends on

the skill of the teacher, I think.

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That's why I don't agree with kids

that say, I'm just really bad at math.

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And then just resign to being bad at math.

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I think that has to do with how they

were taught and their expectations.

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But anyway going down the path of

writing, here's another question for you.

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What do you think about these hyper, in

my mind, hyper labeling of reading skills

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by

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grade level?

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Because when I was homeschooling

the kids, we did living books and I

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was a huge Charlotte Mason fan and I

absolutely believe in original works.

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And so we, everything that I got

for the kids to read and listen

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to were all original works because

I don't care what level they are.

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They're just beautiful

works of expression.

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But when you get to this hyper level,

like labeling of my son can read at the

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fifth grade level, but he's only five

or my son is in high school, but he's

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only reading at the sixth grade level.

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Like that kind of label

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Scott: labeling

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Tali: make any sense to me at all.

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It's not applicable to

real life whatsoever.

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What do you think?

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Joel Deanna: The question really is,

what is the purpose, what is, what

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purpose does labeling serve for parents?

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If you are predisposed and gravitate

to labeling, what are you doing it for?

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Are you doing it so you can show

off to other families that your

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kid reads in an 8th grade level

when he's only in 5th grade?

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What is the purpose?

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If you value your child's education

more than you value the label, then

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it doesn't matter what the labels are.

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I see, and, from the teacher's

end, What does the labeling what

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is the purpose of the labeling?

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Again it's just as we saw in our example

of the professor who didn't think

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that teaching writing was possible.

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It's laziness.

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If you label a child as incapable of

reading the material on the curriculum,

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then you have an easy way out.

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You can just walk away and say, Oh, they

have to be put into a special needs class.

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Scott: Yeah, labels.

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I agree with you guys.

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Yeah.

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The whole identity politics can be

extrapolated in a lot of different ways.

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If, I'm thinking about like a

number of things here to go down.

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So one of them is, what Tali did

with our kids is she would get

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the unabridged books on audio.

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And every place they drove,

they would listen to the correct

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pronunciation with different accents.

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So imagine.

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You're like you're reading to your

kid every night, but now you've got

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you know, world class leaders and so

for the price of a few library fines

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Because she may have checked everything

out and not brought it back on time.

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But like I all of our kids Do really

well with reading and I think there's

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a correlation between reading and

writing and thinking I Was always drawn

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to the math and the science thing.

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So I was, I watched as our kids

all developed this strength.

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And I think that's a huge part

of it and it's testament that

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anybody can learn anything, right?

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They don't have to be able to

pay huge expat types of fees

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for homeschooling consultants.

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But I am curious though, because you

have been paid at like that, right?

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To help teach.

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The people who come and find you, are

they already aware of these things

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that we're talking about and say I'm

seeking you out because you do this,

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or are you convincing them, or is it,

I just want them to have education and

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they happen to get someone who cares?

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I'm curious of your experience

on, what you've seen with that.

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Joel Deanna: I'm usually chosen because

of my background in classics and my

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robust approach to integrated subjects.

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I integrate literature,

philosophy, history.

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And so if I'm going to be and a lot

of parents, particularly when they get

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up into the high school level, which

you may know, they're intimidated.

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They think, Oh, I'm not

smart enough anymore.

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And I have someone who's more expert.

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So most of my teaching has for homeschool

has been middle and high school.

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I am a private tutor

in writing and reading.

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And that is primarily the younger grades

are private and public school whose

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families expect high achievement levels

from the children and they're not getting

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the education that they need to in class.

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Some of these children go to schools

that are 50 grand a year, private

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schools, and they're still hiring

out private tutors for writing.

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So that's how bad the education is.

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But if kids can't read, and if

kids don't read, if parents don't

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encourage kids to read, then they're,

they will not be as good at writing.

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Because that, and reading what I think are

the best books, the living books excuse

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me the living books, the classics, those,

that wonderful corpus of literature,

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that wonderful corpus of primary sources.

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Those are the things that kids should be

reading and the reading level is, it's

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like labeling, oh, I'm a, I'm a kinetic

learner or I'm an auditory learner.

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I don't buy into those either.

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I think we may favor different things.

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If I'm going to listen to a podcast,

I need to be sitting at my desk and

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writing notes because I'm that student.

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I'm Hermione Granger, right?

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So that's how I learn

and that's what I do.

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And I would rather read a book than listen

to a podcast, but that's because I've

346

:

been a massive reader my entire life.

347

:

And it's my comfort level, right?

348

:

That's where I'm comfortable.

349

:

I don't want people yammering at me.

350

:

It actually causes me a

little stress sometimes.

351

:

I'm like, oh my God, stop talking.

352

:

But I like quiet.

353

:

I'm just that person.

354

:

Joel's complete opposite.

355

:

Completely opposite.

356

:

Yeah, they say opposites attract.

357

:

Here we go.

358

:

But I think the reading level is

ridiculous, and it is laziness.

359

:

It's when I'm teaching eighth grade,

I just look at the back of the book

360

:

at the bookstore, or in the Scholastic

catalog, and reading level eight,

361

:

here's what I get a pick from.

362

:

And I think that's crap.

363

:

I teach eighth grade reading

level in my reading classes.

364

:

It's a writing reading center

now, because I'm there, but I'm

365

:

teaching eighth grade levels.

366

:

I'm teaching primary sources.

367

:

I had a fifth grader reading

translations of Copernicus.

368

:

And he did amazing with that.

369

:

I don't believe in those things.

370

:

I think you should find something

a little more difficult where they

371

:

have words that they need to look

up and words that they don't know.

372

:

That's the reading level.

373

:

Figure that out.

374

:

And if you're, homeschoolers know their

kids better than any other parents.

375

:

You know what level to

get that for your kid.

376

:

And moreover, you know the

level and you know the interest.

377

:

The interest drives the level, the

interest drives the passion, and

378

:

the ability to stick with it when it

gets more complex and and difficult.

379

:

Tali: What I

380

:

Scott: hear.

381

:

I don't think it's laziness.

382

:

I would challenge that.

383

:

I think it has to do with incentives.

384

:

If parents, the parents are motivated

more than anyone for the well

385

:

being and the future of their kid.

386

:

I would argue.

387

:

There's probably some bad parents.

388

:

I get that.

389

:

But in general a teacher is going

to have different kind of pressures.

390

:

You need to have students present because

that's how the pay is going to work.

391

:

Or the union has pushed on something.

392

:

Or There's a woke ideology, something

other push that has to be integrated and

393

:

it's a matter of what is their incentive.

394

:

And so if they don't have an incentive

to teach these kids these things, because

395

:

it's almost like we are assuming that they

understand that these things are valuable.

396

:

If they don't value it, they don't

have an incentive to teach that way.

397

:

And I agree with you.

398

:

I do think there's teachers

are good teachers out there.

399

:

There are good teachers, but there's also.

400

:

A lot of people have been attracted

to this industry that are not

401

:

doing it for those reasons.

402

:

Joel Deanna: a lot of what you're driving

at is structural and has been built into

403

:

the what we might call the education

industrial complex since its inception.

404

:

Exception, at least in America,

Indiana has a lot to say about why

405

:

we arrived at this idea of the 30

or more person classroom in which

406

:

the incentives are driven to have

the teachers teach to the middle.

407

:

So any exceptions.

408

:

Can't be addressed.

409

:

You you're mass producing the or

creating an assembly line of students.

410

:

There are reasons why we came to

this point and and it's something

411

:

we can explore if you, if that's

something you want to talk about.

412

:

We might have to do that another time.

413

:

That's a, that's conversation if you're

414

:

Tali: is a big conversation.

415

:

I was going to just mention really

quickly that we also have really

416

:

externalized the reward of reading.

417

:

So one memory I have that.

418

:

That just really stands out when from the

time when I was homeschooling the kids

419

:

was every summer if you go to the public

library, and we use the public library a

420

:

lot, like I walk in, and I know all the

librarians and they know my name, they

421

:

like, here's your stuff, we know them

really well, we're there all the time.

422

:

And every summer, they would have these

summer reading programs where they start

423

:

to have this chart, and they have all

these incentives, rewards and stuff.

424

:

And if you read this many books

and you write them down, then you

425

:

can submit it for a little trinket.

426

:

And at the end you'll have a drawing

and sometimes you get an iPad.

427

:

Sometimes you get a, like a big screen TV.

428

:

We're talking serious.

429

:

Incentives to get these kids to read so

I would go in and we always check out

430

:

at least 50 to 100 books at a time And

we would be leaving and the librarians

431

:

would be flagging me down go Have you

signed your kids up for the summer reading

432

:

program every summer same question and

I would say no I'm not participating

433

:

in that and they would say well why?

434

:

And I said, because the

reward is the story itself.

435

:

The reward is not the

trinket you give them.

436

:

The reward is not the

sticker I put on their chart.

437

:

The reward is the enjoyment of the story.

438

:

And they were so mad at me.

439

:

I heard them actually talking after

they thought I left with each other.

440

:

And they were like, I can't believe that

mother won't reward her kids for reading.

441

:

They are rewarded.

442

:

I don't need to reward them.

443

:

The reward is the story.

444

:

And that's why they come back.

445

:

And that's why they pick out

10 more books in that series.

446

:

What do you think about that?

447

:

The summer reading program?

448

:

Joel Deanna: Those librarians, they

have their own reward, they're rewarded

449

:

by their their organization, their

bureaucracy, basically, because that's

450

:

what librarians are in major city public

library systems they're bureaucrats.

451

:

who are rewarded for getting

their their patrons through this

452

:

this assembly line of readers.

453

:

So there's also national contest by the

library association and stuff, things

454

:

that the individual library, or if they

have grant funding, they would need.

455

:

the metrics and stuff.

456

:

So there's, it's like a

multi layer reward system.

457

:

So my sister and I, we used to sign

up, and I lived in a small town in

458

:

California, a very rural small town,

and we would go to the library and

459

:

we'd sign up for the summer reading

program, but we didn't get any reward.

460

:

We just would write down

our, the titles of the books.

461

:

It just was a tracker, and my

sister and I were super competitive.

462

:

We actually still are, and We would

figure out who could read more books and

463

:

then she was three years older so she

would say my books were easier because

464

:

they were shorter or more pictures

and so like it was, but that was.

465

:

It's just fun sibling competitiveness,

but there was no prize per se.

466

:

And I know it's like kind of

big business now but I agree.

467

:

I think that the reward is in the reading.

468

:

When I teach, even when I'm teaching

IEW for the Writing Center, I

469

:

don't have any grades on my papers.

470

:

I don't do grades because I

want them to learn and I don't

471

:

want them to be so worried.

472

:

And a lot of the kids that I work

with have parents that are only

473

:

worried about the end of the grade.

474

:

It's not, they're not really necessarily,

I'm sure they want their children

475

:

to learn, but it's that grade.

476

:

They're like, Oh, he only has a 91 in ELA.

477

:

Can you help him?

478

:

So he can pull that up.

479

:

And I'm like, but what is he learning?

480

:

And That's the value.

481

:

I don't give grades

482

:

and just to tie the two ideas together

of assigning a reward to to the activity

483

:

that is outside the internal necessity

of the activity like reading, when

484

:

you place the reward to be something

other than the activity itself.

485

:

or if you if you make the grade more

important than the learning, the lesson

486

:

that you're actually transmitting is

is that the actual activity itself is

487

:

not as valuable as what other people

think about what you've accomplished.

488

:

So again, it's another second handed

system that that diminishes the the

489

:

importance of the activity itself.

490

:

Tali: Yeah, I absolutely agree when our

kids were being homeschooled I also didn't

491

:

give grades because people always would

say have you graded their paper yet?

492

:

And I said no I made marks on it

I circled things that needed some

493

:

improvement or adjustment But that's

all the feedback they need because life

494

:

doesn't operate on grades only schools

do it's you're not teaching them what

495

:

Joel Deanna: What happens when they,

what happens when they leave school or

496

:

what happens when the summer's over?

497

:

Are they going to come back

and read the books again?

498

:

Are they going to try to find books

on their own that they can enjoy?

499

:

Are they going to try to

improve their writing once

500

:

they're not being graded for it?

501

:

These incentives are really perverse.

502

:

Yeah,

503

:

and back to the grade thing,

I remember I spent hours and

504

:

hours grading essays in college.

505

:

All my exams had a little bit of the

sort of multiple choice questions,

506

:

but I hate writing them, and you can

judge a lot more about learning if

507

:

you have short answers and essays.

508

:

So most of my Okay.

509

:

Exams were written.

510

:

They were, I created

new ones to every class.

511

:

And so I would spend hours

and hours grading essays and

512

:

essay exams, giving comments.

513

:

And the students would only look at

the top of the grade and that was it.

514

:

And I had to give grades, right?

515

:

It's college, it was enforced.

516

:

But they would never look at the comments.

517

:

Two semesters before I stopped teaching,

I finally said, if you want comments and

518

:

a lot of feedback, please let me know.

519

:

Otherwise, I'm going to just give you

proofreading marks on your papers.

520

:

But if you want substantive comments

about the content about grammar rules.

521

:

Let me know.

522

:

I only had a few students over those

2 semesters come up to me and say,

523

:

can you give me a lot of comments?

524

:

Because I want to improve my writing.

525

:

Scott: Yeah.

526

:

Joel Deanna: When you ask the question

of why that, that is the case.

527

:

You have to look back on how these

students were taught and what the

528

:

demands were of them as they matriculated

through their education system.

529

:

Comments improvements were

never as important as the grade.

530

:

And and then they get to the college

level, and they're not even looking

531

:

at ways to improve themselves.

532

:

You know what that also does?

533

:

It it changes the

incentives for the teacher.

534

:

Why would the teacher spend all that

time pouring over all those essays

535

:

to, to make informed comments?

536

:

the truth is that a lot of a lot of

teachers, whatever level, because

537

:

of the incentives that we have in

the system today, have given up.

538

:

And they're not even as, as diligent as

to offer students a choice as to whether

539

:

they, to get intense comments or not.

540

:

They'll just make multiple choice tests

that go through a Scantron, and they'll,

541

:

the tests will be the same every year,

and they're, they'll just mail in.

542

:

Tali: I don't think people like

everybody knows what Scantron is.

543

:

Joel Deanna: Oh, okay.

544

:

Those are those little forms

where you fill in the bubbles.

545

:

So you write an exam and it's either

a true false, so one or two, or A or

546

:

B, or it's A, B, C, D for the multiple

choice answers, and you fill in the

547

:

bubbles and you put it in a machine.

548

:

Number two pencil.

549

:

In the department I worked at,

which is the history department

550

:

at the college, I had colleagues

20 years using the same exams.

551

:

They never changed them.

552

:

Same text, same exam.

553

:

Same, test bank from the publisher and

They would just do Scantron and I'm like,

554

:

I'm rewriting my exams every semester.

555

:

I'm changing my books I'm doing all

of this stuff and there's they're

556

:

actually getting paid longer or more

than I am because they've been there

557

:

longer It was never about pay for me.

558

:

It was about I love learning and I

loved teaching and I love sharing

559

:

knowledge But towards the end,

there was quite a bit of resentment

560

:

there, because I'm like, do better.

561

:

But talking about incentives, those

are the incentives that reward the

562

:

lazy teacher and drive teachers

like Deanna out of the system.

563

:

Scott: Yeah.

564

:

Tali: I'm just going to keep

throwing questions at you because

565

:

I, there are some things that I've

been really frustrated about that.

566

:

I just want to discuss

in more in the open.

567

:

So another thing that has been really

frustrating me based on what I'm

568

:

hearing from my college age kids is

this concept of being graded by your

569

:

peers rather than the professor.

570

:

Yeah, so I said to them it's like

blind leading the blind you don't know

571

:

what you're talking about But you're

supposed to give meaningful feedback

572

:

to five other students So that you

can get your full mark and then your

573

:

grade depends on Other people's opinion

of you who also don't know anything.

574

:

What the heck is that about?

575

:

Especially in a writing class.

576

:

Joel Deanna: Yeah, it's a

couple things that are driving

577

:

that one is egalitarianism.

578

:

We are no longer living in a meritocracy.

579

:

And although I'm not the biggest fan

of putting rates for the reasons we've

580

:

already discussed, I do believe in,

you need to have a meritocracy, those

581

:

people that are better at certain

things should be doing those things

582

:

like particularly a doctor, right?

583

:

A pilot that's come up in the recent

news, I want pilots that are actually

584

:

good, not Based on some woke metric.

585

:

And what teachers are doing, this

idea of peer review and sharing paper.

586

:

So there used to be a time when you

would Exchange papers and use the

587

:

honor system where you would have

maybe a multiple choice test and the

588

:

teacher would have students exchange

and then they would grade it and then

589

:

the teacher could collect them and

then spot check them or whatever.

590

:

So that used to be a thing.

591

:

And again, that I think was teachers just

trying to get the kids to do their work,

592

:

even though I don't think that could have

been used in class time, but whatever.

593

:

Now it's this peer review because

everything has to be kumbaya and

594

:

everybody's holding hands and

we all love each other and no.

595

:

It shouldn't be that.

596

:

I'm sorry, in a freshman writing class in

college, I know what they're, I knew what

597

:

come, what was coming out of high school.

598

:

I taught college, they were under or

unprepared for writing and reading.

599

:

Don't even get me started

on math, it's worse.

600

:

And so To let those freshmen take

papers in grade and try to give

601

:

comments when they've never even really

learned the fundamentals of grammar and

602

:

writing and how to structure things.

603

:

And again, I go back to laziness.

604

:

I was in the system.

605

:

There are good teachers.

606

:

But this is laziness.

607

:

And that's why I always

say, do better, be better.

608

:

I say it on Twitter all the time, too.

609

:

For, people trying to encourage

people to learn about Bitcoin.

610

:

I'm like, you can't be angry about it.

611

:

You can't do it this way.

612

:

Kindness.

613

:

Do better.

614

:

So these teachers need to be doing better.

615

:

They need to teach how to write.

616

:

I teach kids how to edit.

617

:

I spent 45 minutes online on a Zoom

class last night teaching a 4th grader

618

:

how to do a line edit of his own work.

619

:

We learned he needs help on prepositions.

620

:

That was great information for me.

621

:

So I'm teach, so they should be, instead

of using that class for peer review,

622

:

that teacher should be going through

and asking someone to volunteer their

623

:

paper so we can do a line edit so I can

show you how to edit your own work on

624

:

a rough draft before you turn it in.

625

:

Tali: I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure they're

not allowed to do that now because

626

:

that would be like targeting people.

627

:

But anyway, it drives me nuts.

628

:

And actually one of our kids,

we have four kids, right?

629

:

One of them actually came to me after

one year of being in school in college.

630

:

And he said, I'm literally

learning nothing.

631

:

And one year, and he said, I refuse to

pay for an education I'm giving to myself.

632

:

And I said, why is that?

633

:

And he said in all his classes,

everything was peer reviewed.

634

:

He never heard from the professor

one time in one year, never one time.

635

:

And the professor assigns some kind

of project, you're supposed to go

636

:

figure it out yourself and then

turn it in and then your others,

637

:

the fellow students graded and he

said, I'm not going to pay for that.

638

:

It's not an education.

639

:

I said, okay.

640

:

So he dropped out.

641

:

I, we still have other two kids.

642

:

We have two, two dropped out to state

643

:

Scott: the two

644

:

Tali: that stay when they tell me what

Garbage, they're required to do that's a

645

:

complete time waster makes me so angry,

646

:

Joel Deanna: So why do

they want to stay in?

647

:

Tali: they want to stay in for

the social reasons because they,

648

:

Joel Deanna: join a book I'm sorry.

649

:

Okay.

650

:

Tali: Are no book clubs here, Deanna, that

you can join with people your own age.

651

:

Yeah but it's like they want,

they were coming out of COVID.

652

:

And they really wanted interaction.

653

:

Scott: And

654

:

Tali: the first year they were in there,

everybody was behind masks, and then they

655

:

realized what was going on in college.

656

:

But then the masks, the

mandate was removed.

657

:

So they were able to see

each other's faces now.

658

:

So they wanted to go back and try to build

a relationship in person, face to face.

659

:

Scott: face, and,

660

:

Tali: Learn that side of college so

they're there for that but academically

661

:

I always told them don't you Bend your

principles just to get an A from some

662

:

a professor for some dumb assignment

663

:

Joel Deanna: Can I just

add that the laziness?

664

:

Reason the justification or the

explanation for professor actions

665

:

for simply being laziness is actually

the the most generous explanation for

666

:

this behavior and the real, like the

driving reason, the reason that it

667

:

is it's not just an accident here or

there with a few bad apples, but it is.

668

:

Uniform across all disciplines and all

professors is that there is a driving

669

:

ideology behind it and college professors

now are almost entirely uniformly

670

:

Marxist egalitarian and and they do this

not out of of a dereliction of duty.

671

:

Or some need to get, pull

one over on the system.

672

:

They do this because they're

ideologically motivated to do this.

673

:

So any independent thinking person is

an oppressor in the Marxist worldview.

674

:

Anyone who rises above the, the

social norm, anyone who thinks

675

:

independently is an oppressor.

676

:

So these peer review groups are

really devious ways of of weeding

677

:

out independent thinkers, knocking

them down, making them irrelevant.

678

:

and doing it on on this really

behind the scenes way where you

679

:

can make it seem like it's a nice

kumbaya everyone's in it together.

680

:

Social get together thing, when it's

in fact a real Marxist agenda that

681

:

they've been inculcated with, meaning

the teachers, have been driven through

682

:

the, their entire academic life.

683

:

And there's also a push in academia,

and this has been going on for about

684

:

10, maybe 15, probably 10, 12 years,

and that's project based learning.

685

:

I don't know if you've heard that term

before, but basically where you take

686

:

a classroom and you do a lot of group

work, you do a lot of pair sharing,

687

:

you do a lot of these things on a group

level, and you empower the students.

688

:

To be the keepers of the knowledge and

the idea that you have a teacher at the

689

:

front who is expert, who is imparting

wisdom upon those people in front of

690

:

them, the students, that is now Marxist,

and that has been coming and becoming

691

:

more and more where you don't do that.

692

:

You are no longer the expert in the

room, but you share knowledge and

693

:

everybody can share appropriately.

694

:

But only certain kinds of knowledge.

695

:

Yeah.

696

:

You can't you can't do anything

that comes from an oppressor group.

697

:

Anything Western is is completely out.

698

:

Yeah.

699

:

Only oppressed groups the knowledge

of oppressed groups can apply.

700

:

I'm a fan of Montessori education, but

I also have some ideas about it, where I

701

:

think with little kids, you should just

let them explore things that they're

702

:

really interested in, and give them some

information and just let them go, right?

703

:

I love that approach.

704

:

And in the Montessori system,

you have guides, where they guide

705

:

the children through knowledge.

706

:

When you get up to the college level,

the knowledge that the students

707

:

have should be pretty a lot more and

vast and they need those experts.

708

:

They need that separation.

709

:

Otherwise, why are you there?

710

:

You can just go, particularly

in the modern world, you can

711

:

find out any information.

712

:

It's all in our fingertips on a little

piece of glass in our hand every day.

713

:

Scott: Yep.

714

:

Joel Deanna: The wealth of knowledge from

human history all the way back, right?

715

:

And we don't just need guides in

the classroom like we do for little

716

:

kids in a Montessori education.

717

:

We need those experts that impart

the wisdom and help students.

718

:

Level up in their knowledge, and

that's not the goal anymore, and

719

:

that's why this is happening.

720

:

Tali: Yeah, and I think our girls have

been particularly frustrated with those

721

:

so called Socratic discussions where

it's a bunch of students all talking out

722

:

of their backside because none of them

know what the heck they're talking about.

723

:

And they haven't, most of them even

read the reading material that they're

724

:

supposed to be discussing, but they're

being graded for participation.

725

:

So they just say a bunch of.

726

:

Garbage, so that they can get the

participation grade and it's very

727

:

frustrating for the people who do

the work and actually want to have a

728

:

meaningful discussion, but it's just

a bunch of extroverted people who

729

:

didn't do the work talking garbage.

730

:

Scott: Yeah.

731

:

Joel Deanna: It's true, and feelings

are more important than the actual

732

:

knowledge, than the, that stuff

to back up what you're saying.

733

:

So you can say, yeah, I loved

Pride and Prejudice, it was a

734

:

good book, it made me happy.

735

:

That is as valid as saying, was

it pride or was it prejudice?

736

:

Maybe Mr.

737

:

Darcy was more prideful, but

was Elizabeth really prejudiced?

738

:

Let's examine this on page 400

and blah, blah, blah, right?

739

:

That doesn't matter anymore.

740

:

It's that warm feeling.

741

:

And I felt this and feelings are more

important than facts today in education.

742

:

And that goes all the

way down to kindergarten.

743

:

Tali: Yeah.

744

:

Let's jump into your specific

745

:

Scott: I have one more question.

746

:

Oh, no, go ahead.

747

:

I had one question I wanted to get in.

748

:

Tali's very passionate about

this, so I get I get one question.

749

:

So I, I believe in what Jeff Booth has

laid out that technology is deflationary.

750

:

And at this point, our education system

should be getting better and cheaper.

751

:

Instead, it's getting more expensive.

752

:

And like we just covered the last

few minutes it's getting worse.

753

:

And with every technology, it

can be used for good or bad.

754

:

I wanted to get your point of view.

755

:

We don't have to go too deep on it,

but where do you fit AI into your

756

:

curriculum or when a parent is asking,

Tali and I literally we talked for hours

757

:

on this, so this is not a, this is,

again, this is not meant to take hours.

758

:

I just want to get high level.

759

:

We've talked about ideas.

760

:

We've talked about incentives.

761

:

But we haven't talked about technology

and I want to get your point of

762

:

view on technology and education

763

:

Joel Deanna: We now have an informed

opinion about this, which we didn't

764

:

have, say, six months ago, right?

765

:

Yeah.

766

:

Okay, so go ahead and tell your story.

767

:

The minute you mentioned AI, we

both just smiled and looked at

768

:

each other because Joel is, I loved

technology and I loved it as a tool.

769

:

I was against AI because as a teacher,

I already have to filter through

770

:

so much plagiarism and Pardon the

expression, crap, in order to grade.

771

:

And I was really like, oh my

gosh, no, I can't deal with this.

772

:

But, I, and I wasn't going to use

it, I'm a classicist in my study of

773

:

history, I like classic literature,

don't get me anything modern in

774

:

terms of painting or literature,

anything like, I'm old fashioned.

775

:

You like the physical pages and,

of books and how old books smell.

776

:

Yes, and now living in El Salvador,

I'm relegated to a Kindle, but it is

777

:

what it is, I'm still happy to read.

778

:

Okay, I started using AI and I

started seeing, Oh this is just like

779

:

a search engine on steroids or a

brainstorming partner or a brainstorming.

780

:

I'm writing a book right now, and it's a

brainstorming partner, and so I'm going

781

:

to start offering classes for homeschool

parents or actually workshops, not

782

:

classes, but workshops for homeschool

parents on how to integrate AI In a very

783

:

useful way for your children, because

we're not getting away from this.

784

:

It's the same thing.

785

:

I don't like video games.

786

:

I really have a hard time working with

students that are addicted to games.

787

:

I, a lot of times, won't even work with a

student who's addicted to gaming anymore.

788

:

I can't break, I can't compete

and I can't break through that.

789

:

And it's going to be

the same thing with AI.

790

:

But, just like there are some really

good educational games, this can

791

:

be a really good educational tool.

792

:

It just, like anything, it has

to be taught appropriately.

793

:

How to use it.

794

:

I was working with a kid in class

and I knew he was on chat GPT trying

795

:

to answer my reading comprehension

questions and I could see the

796

:

frustration because I write my own

questions and he couldn't find them.

797

:

And he couldn't get the right answers.

798

:

And to me, I was like, ah, I went again.

799

:

I'm so excited because, I can use

chat GPT to give me some ideas, but

800

:

then I take those ideas and I run

with it using my own human brain.

801

:

And I think that is brilliant.

802

:

And I'm really excited

to have that tool now.

803

:

But it took me a long time to

804

:

Scott: we I agree with you.

805

:

It can be used for good.

806

:

They're going to be people who use it

for poor reasons as well But if you

807

:

don't teach them how to use it the rest

of the world is going to use it and I

808

:

Joel Deanna: what's more important

than that is to teach them, and

809

:

I'm going to use this phrase

advisedly, teach them how to think.

810

:

Okay, we all talk about it.

811

:

Everyone in education says the

worst thing about education is the

812

:

lack of critical thinking, right?

813

:

But where does that come from?

814

:

You can't teach a class

on critical thinking.

815

:

You can't teach okay, let's talk about

logical fallacies today, or let's talk

816

:

about how to structure your thoughts.

817

:

No, that's not how it works.

818

:

You can't just turn on a switch and

have a class about critical thinking.

819

:

But what you can do, and that's

the approach that we took in our

820

:

the curriculum that we wrote.

821

:

is to have a survey of all the great works

of history and literature and philosophy.

822

:

You, that gives you the broad spectrum

of human behavior, and example

823

:

after example of people thinking.

824

:

Rather than having a class in critical

thinking, you model critical thinking.

825

:

You model it as a teacher, demonstrating

how to work through problems using

826

:

thought, using critical analysis.

827

:

But you also show how Aristotle thought,

you walk through the metaphysics or

828

:

you walk through the politics and

oh, look, Aristotle walked the beach.

829

:

And and all these different critters

and catalog them and drew inferences

830

:

from them or he went to he saw human

behavior and made a catalog of how the

831

:

different ways people behaved and he

said, Oh this is clearly better than that.

832

:

And so you walk through all these great.

833

:

Ideas, examples through history

and also literature, if you have

834

:

my favorite example is that if you

are if you have a student who's

835

:

having trouble with a deceitful

friend, but they've read Othello.

836

:

They already know that guy's in IAGO so

you model that through all these great

837

:

examples and at the end, and there is no

end because we are always in a process of

838

:

learning, but you become a better critical

thinker, and when you're that, Then you

839

:

can tackle AI and use it for you for your

the best purpose that you can use it for.

840

:

Well,

841

:

Tali: Yeah, I feel like that we need to

do a whole nother episode on just using

842

:

AI appropriately because Scott and I

are very interested in that as well.

843

:

In the beginning, I was very against it.

844

:

But now I use chat GPT every single day.

845

:

And like Deanna said, you can't use it.

846

:

It's not a brain.

847

:

It's not actually the what's his name?

848

:

The Iron Man's computer.

849

:

Scott: It's not like that, Jarvis,

850

:

Tali: You it's spitting you back

probability of a simulation of

851

:

information and then you still have

to discern it and you take from it

852

:

what works for you and then change

it accordingly if you copy and paste.

853

:

That's not appropriate.

854

:

So you, what are you going to say?

855

:

Joel Deanna: you have to treat it, you

have to treat ChatGBT or any other AI in

856

:

exactly the same way to an even stricter

sense than the way you treat Wikipedia.

857

:

You have to have the same

amount of skepticism.

858

:

With your chat GBT output as you do when

you are looking up a factoid on Wikipedia.

859

:

And if you try to copy paste your

Wikipedia entries and submit that in

860

:

the paper someone like Deanna is going

to find that out and know that you've

861

:

plagiarized because you probably left

the links in when you did your copy

862

:

Tali: But

863

:

Joel Deanna: Well, there's that.

864

:

And you also said Fact and Wikipedia,

and that's for me oxymoronic.

865

:

That's true.

866

:

But anyway.

867

:

Yeah.

868

:

Tali: but I do think that we shouldn't

shy away from it because some schools

869

:

are taking a very strict approach in

that if they track your IP address

870

:

or something on your laptop, I'm

talking specifically about one

871

:

school, they track your IP address.

872

:

And if you land on Chad, GBT at all.

873

:

Scott: you

874

:

Tali: get a visit from

the administrative office,

875

:

Scott: Really?

876

:

Tali: yeah, but I feel like that's

Saying you can't use a knife because

877

:

it might hurt you So therefore

you can't use any knife at all.

878

:

You need to use it Like a tool and

it's a tool You don't just prohibit

879

:

them from using the tool because

you're afraid they're gonna use it

880

:

for something That's not gonna be

helpful to them So we do encourage like

881

:

we absolutely agree with you Deanna

that we need to teach people how to

882

:

incorporate chat GPT in Homeschooling

883

:

Scott: They

884

:

should not be afraid

885

:

Tali: of it They should not be like

I'm not gonna get involved with it

886

:

because they are going to be left

behind Because no matter what chat

887

:

GPT helps you with your productivity

888

:

Joel Deanna: But teach them

how to think first, and then

889

:

they'll be able to use the AI.

890

:

It's the same thing like 50 years ago,

or 70 now, I'm getting old, but 70, I'm

891

:

not that old, I'm not 70, but 70 years

ago, the idea of an encyclopedia, right?

892

:

Oh, we can't have that, because you

should just go look at all those big

893

:

books, or go to that original source.

894

:

But encyclopedias in their day would have

been scary, because now you have this The

895

:

set of books where there's all of this

information, and it's so condensed, and

896

:

it's just someone else did that for you

no, you should go look, yeah, you should

897

:

go always back to the original source,

but the encyclopedia is a tool, and then

898

:

you take that, and you go exploit the

bibliography, or you find a book that's

899

:

a secondary source, and you exploit the

bibliography, and then you go, and you

900

:

find those original sources, and then

you know the source, and chat GPT is the

901

:

same thing It's, I'm writing a Bitcoin

book and I'm going to be starting writing

902

:

Bitcoin curriculum for different levels.

903

:

And it is my writing partner.

904

:

But here's a trick that that all

students should be directed to to act

905

:

upon when they use any kind of AI.

906

:

And that is, to ask

the AI for its sources.

907

:

So if you are asking for a quote about

a particular subject, and and it gives

908

:

you the perfect quote for what you

need for your academic project, ask

909

:

what the source of that quote was.

910

:

And you will often find

that the AI made it up.

911

:

Ask for the source, and

then explore the source.

912

:

And then call the AI on the source.

913

:

If you suspect that they're making it up

and you will be led down this this very

914

:

entertaining path of AI hallucination,

which is the technical term for it.

915

:

They literally make stuff up.

916

:

So again, just ask for the source

and and at least use that to

917

:

validate the output from the AI.

918

:

Yeah, I try to get an apology for

AI lying to me at least once a day.

919

:

It's now a game that I play.

920

:

Tali: I, that is so funny that

you said that's a great tip, by

921

:

the way, I'm going to use it.

922

:

But I was I was writing a blog and

chat GPT was my writing partner, like

923

:

Deanna was saying about her book.

924

:

And I said, give me 1000 words.

925

:

And it gives me it spits out this thing.

926

:

And I said, how many words is that 376?

927

:

I said, that's not 1000 words, I

asked for:

928

:

And so I'll do it again.

929

:

And I'll say how many words is that 454.

930

:

Scott: 454,

931

:

Tali: That's not a thousand words.

932

:

Go back and do it again.

933

:

And I will just go into this loop

and it start, like you were saying,

934

:

Joel, it start just making stuff up.

935

:

Literally, it's so funny.

936

:

Once you get there, you realize

that this is nothing more than a

937

:

tool that is dumber than yourself.

938

:

Because I think a lot of people

are like, oh my god, AI is

939

:

gonna take over the world.

940

:

It is not.

941

:

It is just, like you said, it's a search

engine that sometimes makes up stuff.

942

:

Or

943

:

Scott: not a search engine.

944

:

It's a series of vectors and

probabilities and 100 percent of

945

:

everything it spits out is made up 100%.

946

:

Oh, okay.

947

:

It just might sound real.

948

:

So it doesn't, it's not actually

thinking in any way whatsoever.

949

:

And I think the, like the stupid Biden.

950

:

Executive order where they're the

big tech companies are trying to

951

:

build a legal moat around themselves.

952

:

You can't put the genie back in

the bottle with this AI thing.

953

:

It's out there and it's

amazingly powerful.

954

:

But it's not thinking like the idea

that this thing is thinking and

955

:

whatever else I mean it doesn't

956

:

yeah, what do you guys what's your current

what are you guys currently working

957

:

on do you have some personal goals for

the year or I mean you've mentioned the

958

:

book you're obviously working on a book

959

:

Joel Deanna: We have we each

have our own writing projects.

960

:

Yeah, we're both writing right now.

961

:

And if you met us, you would think

Joel would be the nonfiction writer

962

:

and I would be the fiction writer.

963

:

I'm writing a book and I have

a working title, Shells to

964

:

Satoshi, the Story of Money.

965

:

And it is a historical look at

money over time and how we ended

966

:

up where we got, where we are.

967

:

And then it's an instruction

manual, a very introductory level

968

:

instruction manual on Bitcoin.

969

:

Why we need Bitcoin, what Bitcoin

is, and how to start using it.

970

:

I hope it it should end up being the

kind of book that if your friend who

971

:

doesn't know anything about Bitcoin

is interested in getting into it, it's

972

:

for the layperson, so it's the kind

of book that you want to hand them

973

:

to get them started on their journey.

974

:

Yeah, and it really

answers the question why.

975

:

Why we need money.

976

:

Why it's changed so much over time.

977

:

Why we are where we are and why we

need Bitcoin and that Bitcoin is the

978

:

culmination of these thousands of

years of history of human history

979

:

and in terms of economics, and you're

about 80 to 90 percent done with it.

980

:

Yeah, it'll be released this spring.

981

:

And and then I'm taking that and I'm going

to be doing high school curriculum, middle

982

:

school curriculum, upper elementary, lower

elementary, and then writing children's

983

:

books based on the concepts in this book.

984

:

So moving it down a different

level, the story of money.

985

:

And it's a narrative.

986

:

It's it doesn't.

987

:

For the laid book for adults, it

doesn't start once upon a time,

988

:

but there will be versions in

the curriculum once upon a time.

989

:

And it'll go into these different

civilizations, and it'll start

990

:

at the beginning, and then

it'll go all the way through.

991

:

So I'm really excited.

992

:

By the end of the year, like I,

I'm always overachiever type A

993

:

personality, I would love to have.

994

:

Most of the levels completed homeschool

curriculum that includes teacher's guides,

995

:

assignments, grading guides, all of

those things have writing assignments.

996

:

I would like to have all the levels for

homeschool done by the end of the year.

997

:

And and then I would like to

start writing children's books.

998

:

And I have a few people I'm dream about

working with in terms of illustrations.

999

:

If you've ever tried to do illustrations

on chat, GPT, you know how bad they are.

:

00:55:44,107 --> 00:55:48,897

I went down a one hour rabbit hole

arguing with it about what a Regency

:

00:55:49,227 --> 00:55:52,047

dress would like, and it looked like,

and it kept on giving me Victorian hoop

:

00:55:52,047 --> 00:55:54,177

skirts and we just argued back and forth.

:

00:55:54,182 --> 00:55:59,252

Yeah, I and I thought, oh, okay,

no, you must be prompting it badly.

:

00:55:59,252 --> 00:56:01,622

So I tried it on my own and.

:

00:56:02,362 --> 00:56:06,852

Nope, it's pretty bad at Regency,

and it it gave me a couple dresses

:

00:56:06,882 --> 00:56:09,992

that looked like it came out

of Ante the Antebellum South.

:

00:56:10,142 --> 00:56:14,212

Yeah, but so that's the

writing that I'm doing.

:

00:56:14,212 --> 00:56:17,712

I'll let Joel talk about his,

but then I also teach classes.

:

00:56:17,992 --> 00:56:23,402

We have Lyceum tutoring, where I will

offer classes, history, humanities,

:

00:56:23,432 --> 00:56:25,822

economics, literature, art history.

:

00:56:26,162 --> 00:56:27,372

And those are on demand.

:

00:56:27,382 --> 00:56:31,492

So if somebody wants me to teach

their homeschool child I only am

:

00:56:31,492 --> 00:56:32,782

dealing with the Bitcoin audience.

:

00:56:33,022 --> 00:56:36,162

So Bitcoin homeschoolers they

can register for a class if

:

00:56:36,162 --> 00:56:37,262

they want to get a group class.

:

00:56:37,262 --> 00:56:40,082

And obviously it goes down per

student in terms of the fees.

:

00:56:40,362 --> 00:56:41,872

So that's lyceumtutoring.

:

00:56:41,902 --> 00:56:42,292

com.

:

00:56:42,682 --> 00:56:46,072

And so we're pretty busy right now working

on, I'm busy with all of those things.

:

00:56:46,132 --> 00:56:49,922

And we just got the

domain shells to Satoshi.

:

00:56:50,347 --> 00:56:54,417

Dot com Shells, TO satoshi.com.

:

00:56:54,937 --> 00:56:56,197

So look for the book there.

:

00:56:56,197 --> 00:56:59,377

recording this in January of:

:

00:56:59,647 --> 00:57:03,397

So to all your time travelers

that are listening to us in the

:

00:57:03,402 --> 00:57:04,772

future check out that website.

:

00:57:06,102 --> 00:57:07,402

Scott: We'll put that in the show notes.

:

00:57:07,442 --> 00:57:07,662

Yeah.

:

00:57:07,662 --> 00:57:10,312

Anything you want we'll

just put in the show notes.

:

00:57:10,594 --> 00:57:11,562

So it just,

:

00:57:11,698 --> 00:57:13,357

Joel Deanna: so talk about your

book that you're working on.

:

00:57:13,677 --> 00:57:20,167

So I'm working on a romance

novel set in El Salvador in

:

00:57:20,247 --> 00:57:22,397

and among the Bitcoin expats.

:

00:57:24,187 --> 00:57:26,957

In the beach areas and

and in San Salvador.

:

00:57:26,957 --> 00:57:32,047

Yeah it's a a reversal of roles

here because because Deanna is

:

00:57:32,047 --> 00:57:37,447

really the prime consumer of

romance novels in the household.

:

00:57:38,367 --> 00:57:44,867

But But I am starting to find this genre

so interesting, and and I love the idea

:

00:57:44,907 --> 00:57:53,707

of following a character who has come

from a a place where she has no agency

:

00:57:53,727 --> 00:57:57,072

and no personal sovereignty of her own.

:

00:57:57,372 --> 00:58:02,392

And and comes to what I think and

what I think we both experience

:

00:58:02,392 --> 00:58:04,612

here, just walking on the

beach is a place of healing.

:

00:58:05,332 --> 00:58:09,292

A lot of people have come here

to escape bad situations, whether

:

00:58:09,297 --> 00:58:14,372

they're fleeing a bad social setting

or they're fleeing medical tyranny

:

00:58:14,822 --> 00:58:16,022

or any kind of tyranny at all.

:

00:58:16,022 --> 00:58:22,302

They come here and find a community

that is so giving and optimistic.

:

00:58:23,277 --> 00:58:28,867

That I just felt like I wanted to write

something that would capture that spirit

:

00:58:28,917 --> 00:58:34,877

that that we found moving here, and

I'm sure Scott, you and Tali have done

:

00:58:35,272 --> 00:58:37,162

Felt that when you made your visit too?

:

00:58:37,542 --> 00:58:37,752

Scott: yep.

:

00:58:38,172 --> 00:58:42,362

You said you have a, first of all,

it sounds like you guys have enough

:

00:58:42,372 --> 00:58:44,142

projects going on for 10 people.

:

00:58:44,522 --> 00:58:46,532

You have so much stuff going on.

:

00:58:47,342 --> 00:58:47,742

That's a lot.

:

00:58:48,142 --> 00:58:48,992

That's a lot.

:

00:58:49,482 --> 00:58:51,852

You said you had a story about the

:

00:58:51,892 --> 00:58:53,002

Tali: name Lycium.

:

00:58:54,232 --> 00:58:55,352

That you wanted to share.

:

00:58:55,707 --> 00:59:03,407

Joel Deanna: Our, so our business Lyceum

tutoring is named after the old school

:

00:59:03,467 --> 00:59:06,377

run by Aristotle called the Lyceum.

:

00:59:07,097 --> 00:59:12,442

And, And that's and we wanted to make

it our own personal tribute to one of

:

00:59:12,442 --> 00:59:16,342

the greatest philosophers of all time

and personal heroes to both of us.

:

00:59:17,342 --> 00:59:17,492

He.

:

00:59:18,217 --> 00:59:22,977

Encouraged observation and curiosity,

and that's what we encourage.

:

00:59:22,977 --> 00:59:24,717

So that's why we named it that also.

:

00:59:25,167 --> 00:59:28,947

But if you've seen my Twitter,

Aristotle fangirl on my little bio.

:

00:59:28,967 --> 00:59:29,697

So that

:

00:59:30,442 --> 00:59:31,282

Comes through as well.

:

00:59:31,647 --> 00:59:32,037

Scott: Got it.

:

00:59:32,427 --> 00:59:32,677

Okay.

:

00:59:33,117 --> 00:59:35,872

So now you've covered your goals,

you've covered what you're working

:

00:59:35,872 --> 00:59:37,352

on, how people should reach.

:

00:59:38,227 --> 00:59:39,317

No, I don't think so.

:

00:59:39,357 --> 00:59:42,547

I did put in the notes that if you guys

had one resource that wasn't one of

:

00:59:42,547 --> 00:59:47,727

your own that you often recommend to

homeschooling parents, I guess it could

:

00:59:47,737 --> 00:59:49,767

be students to take it as you will.

:

00:59:50,907 --> 00:59:52,967

So do you have a favorite recommendation?

:

00:59:54,557 --> 00:59:57,397

Joel Deanna: Yeah, Project

Gutenberg and Internet Archive.

:

00:59:58,312 --> 01:00:02,022

Primary source books that are available

on free, like classic literature,

:

01:00:02,022 --> 01:00:05,742

history, philosophy, these books that

are out of print, you can find them on

:

01:00:05,772 --> 01:00:14,932

Internet Archive and Project Gutenberg,

use those to Kindle and a lot of

:

01:00:14,932 --> 01:00:20,177

places, and a lot of times, or download

a PDF, but use those As your primary

:

01:00:20,177 --> 01:00:21,757

teaching tools, and they're all free.

:

01:00:22,257 --> 01:00:24,827

And those are the best things

that you can teach from.

:

01:00:25,137 --> 01:00:27,947

I take excerpts and I teach

reading comprehension.

:

01:00:27,967 --> 01:00:29,907

I take excerpts and I teach writing.

:

01:00:30,267 --> 01:00:35,947

So go back to the greatest minds of the

West and that's Charlotte Mason, right?

:

01:00:36,237 --> 01:00:39,587

So and teach this classical

approach to education.

:

01:00:39,597 --> 01:00:40,987

So there's a lot of free.

:

01:00:41,632 --> 01:00:42,702

Resources for that.

:

01:00:42,802 --> 01:00:49,202

One of the units that I worked on in our

curriculum company involved an exploration

:

01:00:49,202 --> 01:00:55,962

of the great Greek hero Epaminondas and

his battle against the Spartans summarized

:

01:00:55,982 --> 01:00:59,052

greatly by by Victor Davis Hanson, but.

:

01:00:59,417 --> 01:01:04,977

But I didn't want to just refer

students to a secondary source.

:

01:01:05,487 --> 01:01:11,377

I went to his bibliography and found

the Roman historian, Deiodorus Siculus,

:

01:01:11,377 --> 01:01:18,537

various other sources that were closer

to the story, and all of these I could

:

01:01:18,537 --> 01:01:20,847

supply with links to Project Gutenberg.

:

01:01:21,677 --> 01:01:23,407

I, I created in excerpts.

:

01:01:24,267 --> 01:01:30,097

And put that in the text that I

wrote, but in each excerpt, I had

:

01:01:30,097 --> 01:01:31,567

a link to the original source.

:

01:01:31,577 --> 01:01:34,897

So the text would say, okay,

here's what Diodorus Siculus wrote.

:

01:01:35,567 --> 01:01:38,727

If you want to see the whole

thing in context, here's the link.

:

01:01:38,727 --> 01:01:41,567

And here's how you should read it

because it's a little dense to read.

:

01:01:41,587 --> 01:01:43,087

But here it is.

:

01:01:43,477 --> 01:01:46,417

So that's how you should

really teach this stuff.

:

01:01:46,457 --> 01:01:48,637

Don't just filter it for them.

:

01:01:48,957 --> 01:01:54,507

Give them an ability to, if they're

curious, find out the original source

:

01:01:54,527 --> 01:01:57,077

and get a much more broad scope.

:

01:01:59,172 --> 01:02:01,892

Scott: Okay, listen, we are

so grateful for your time.

:

01:02:01,892 --> 01:02:05,962

We're grateful we got to meet you in

El Salvador and I am sure we're going

:

01:02:05,962 --> 01:02:09,662

to see you either at a homeschooling

convention or Bitcoin conference.

:

01:02:10,067 --> 01:02:11,427

I'm sure we'll see you soon.

:

01:02:11,477 --> 01:02:12,307

Tali, anything else?

:

01:02:13,142 --> 01:02:14,052

Tali: No, this is great.

:

01:02:14,052 --> 01:02:16,602

I feel like we can, there's so

many things more that we can

:

01:02:16,602 --> 01:02:17,912

discuss going down the road.

:

01:02:17,962 --> 01:02:19,312

But yeah, definitely.

:

01:02:19,587 --> 01:02:20,127

Joel Deanna: part two.

:

01:02:20,237 --> 01:02:20,567

Scott: yeah,

:

01:02:20,572 --> 01:02:21,512

Tali: that'd be part two.

:

01:02:21,542 --> 01:02:24,702

But for all the homeschooling families

out there with middle school, high

:

01:02:24,702 --> 01:02:28,622

school kids who are interested in

looking for really well rounded

:

01:02:28,622 --> 01:02:30,982

curriculum, check out their website.

:

01:02:31,572 --> 01:02:32,402

Lyceum tutoring.

:

01:02:32,582 --> 01:02:35,842

com and all other information

we'll add to the show notes.

:

01:02:36,837 --> 01:02:38,177

Scott: All right, until next week.

:

01:02:38,627 --> 01:02:39,167

Thanks everyone.

:

01:02:40,532 --> 01:02:40,852

Tali: Awesome.

:

01:02:41,097 --> 01:02:41,247

Joel Deanna: Thank you.

:

01:02:41,247 --> 01:02:41,737

Bye.

:

01:02:41,782 --> 01:02:41,982

Tali: off.

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About the Podcast

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Tali Lindberg

Hey there, wonderful listeners! I'm Tali, and I'm so excited to welcome you to our podcast today. For two decades, I was knee-deep in the incredible journey of homeschooling my four amazing kids. It was a world of boundless creativity, filled with lesson plans, school projects, sports, and beautiful chaos. But when my children all graduated, a brand-new, unforeseen adventure awaited me - the captivating world of Bitcoin.

It took three years for Scott to bring me into Bitcoin. I hesitated at first, Bitcoin's intricacies seemed daunting, and my plate was already quite full. But he persisted, going so far as to create a fantastic bitcoin-mining board game called HODL UP to demystify it all. Before I knew it, I was down the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Just like my homeschooling journey, I took it one step at a time, learning and evolving as I ventured further.

Now, here we are today, and I couldn't be more thrilled to be part of the vibrant Bitcoin community. In an unexpected twist, my husband Scott and I realized that our homeschooling experiences can be a treasure trove of insights for Bitcoiners who, like us, want to take charge of their children's education. So, in addition to sharing our Bitcoin knowledge with Precoiners with HODL UP and the Orange Hatter podcast, we're here to offer tips and guidance for Bitcoin-homeschoolers. It's going to be an incredible journey, and I can't wait to share it with all of you. Enjoy the ride!
Profile picture for Scott Lindberg

Scott Lindberg

Scott Lindberg is a freedom-loving entrepreneur, author, and game designer. He is a proponent of finding freedom by taking self-custody of education, money and speech.

He and his wife, Tali, co-founded Free Market Kids. Their passion is to give the next generation the knowledge and tools to maximize their chances for freedom, success and happiness. Free Market Kids makes it easy and fun to introduce money concepts to kids through tabletop games, courses, lesson plans and trusted resources. They are best known for HODL UP™, a Bitcoin mining game.

Scott graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point in 1993 with a Bachelor of Science in Systems Engineering. In 2001, he graduated Yale’s School of Management with a Master of Business Administration.