Episode 32

₿HS032: Low-Time-Preference Technology for Kids

SHOW TOPICS:  

In today’s episode we explore the convergence of technology, education and health.  It is alarming how distractions like phone notifications, blue light and social media algorithms just wreak havoc with our circadian rhythms and other aspects of our health.  This dysfunctional relationship with technology is what motivated Anjan to development the DaylightComputer, a true low-time-preference technology.  

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU'LL LEARN:

  • Anjan’s background and love for technology
  • Tug of war for kids … benefits of technology versus the downsides, e.g., distractions, addiction, blue light, etc.
  • “Respect for that which is Lindy”
  • Technology is mis-matched to how humans naturally evolved, e.g., constant notifications, blue light at night, et al
  • The Daylight Computer is like the Marauder’s Map in Harry Potter in that it looks like ink appearing/disappearing and requires light shined on it to see
  • Sovereignty applied to every layer: physical health sovereignty, cognitive sovereignty, nervous system sovereignty, monetary and digital sovereignty
  • Dopamine system encourages people to enjoy learning but computers were designed to take advantage of this same system to make screen time more addicting
  • The goal of Daylight Computer is to give some option but not to go cold turkey on existing devices
  • The product is just as impactful for adults as kids, especially for reading and writing, and it’s healthy
  • It is low-time-preference technology
  • Different parenting approaches to digital devices
  • How flickering works and hurts users
  • Dr John Ott’s book “Health and Light”
  • Jonathan Haidt’s books “Anxious Generation” and “Coddling of the American Mind”
  • Post concussion syndrome and reason to stay away from screens after injury
  • Screen apnea and its impact on breathing and on sleep, we are physiologically compromised 
  • “The Primer” from Neal Stephenson’s novel “The Diamond Age”, inspiring vision for Anjan’s magic (self-learning) book equivalent
  • Teach kids agency and self-learning
  • New computer ecosystem

 RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

  • The Daylight computer https://daylightcomputer.com
  • Anjan’s Twitter @daylightco
  • Anjan’s email Anjan@daylightcomputer.com
  • Jonathan Haidt’s book “The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness” Jonathan 
  • Jonathan Haidt’s book “The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure” 
  • “Brilliant” learning platform https://brilliant.org/
  • John N. Ott’s book “Health and Light: The extraordinary Study that Shows How light Affects Your Health and Emotional Well Being”
  • Video “BAD LIGHT! Effects of Fluorescent Light Irritation on Children and Animals”  https://youtu.be/48WbF-qOQc4
  • Neal Stephenson’s novel “The Diamond Age”

HAPPY TO HELP:

Tali's Twitter @OrangeHatterPod

Scott's Twitter @ScottLindberg93

Scott's nostr npub19jkuyl0wgrj8kccqzh2vnseeql9v98ptrx407ca9qjsrr4x5j9tsnxx0q6

Free Market Kids' Twitter @FreeMarketKids

Free Market Kids' games including HODL UP at https://www.freemarketkids.com  

WAYS TO SUPPORT:

Subscribe, like and share this podcast with others.

The intro/extro music is from TipNZ.  Tip educates through her music, exploring the Bitcoin universe with visual storytelling, sick beats & profound lyrics. https://www.tipnz.com/

We are our own sponsors and are so grateful for all of you who support this show.  Thank you!

Crazy awesome Collector’s Edition of HODL UP is available at https://www.freemarketkids.com/products/hodl-up-2024-halving-limited-edition

Visit our “Free Market Kids“ for products like the Bitcoin mining game, HODL UP  https://www.freemarketkids.com,

Check out Tali’s podcast by and for Bitcoin women, “Orange Hatter” https://www.orangehatter.com  

Have fun with “Proof of Work Apparel” https://www.freemarketkids.com/collections/proof-of-work-apparel

STANDING RESOURCE RECOMMENDATIONS:

Article "Homeschoolers Are Bitcoiners Who Don't Know It Yet" https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/parallels-between-homeschool-and-bitcoin

Tali’s “Quick Start” checklist  https://www.freemarketkids.com/blogs/i-want-to-start-homeschooling/i-want-to-start-homeschooling-quick-start-checklist

Transcript
SCOTT:

Awesome.

2

:

So we'll just start.

3

:

Uh, we're already

4

:

recording on both sides and I

would just love, first of all,

5

:

welcome

6

:

to our show.

7

:

So excited to

8

:

have you here.

9

:

The founder of a very exciting

useful resource that we'll let you

10

:

go into details about.

11

:

So take it over

12

:

and

13

:

tell people who you are.

14

:

ANJAN: Sweet.

15

:

Well, thanks for having me on.

16

:

is exciting cause it's, it's rare to find

the multiple different threads converge.

17

:

Um, whether it be me or the project, I

feel like with a certain person, we're

18

:

talking about the decentralized and

sovereign aspects of what I'm interested

19

:

in and what daylight is with somebody

else, we're getting into the blue light

20

:

and circadian rhythms with somebody else.

21

:

It's about, you know, the social media

algorithms and addiction and distraction.

22

:

Uh, it's just, it just feels really cool.

23

:

To meet somebody else where all of it

intersecting, all of it is on the table.

24

:

And that's probably the

best way to describe me.

25

:

I just, I've been very passionate

about technology and gadgets and

26

:

computers ever since I was a kid.

27

:

Would always go to the store and try

every single new laptop and phone and

28

:

camcorder and boombox and everything

in just kind of fell in love with it.

29

:

The early images of Steve Jobs

and Nolan Bushnell were these

30

:

early Silicon Valley founders.

31

:

Nolan Bushnell was the founder of

Atari, which was kind of like the

32

:

first irreverent technology company.

33

:

total punks and rebels and hippies.

34

:

I just fell in love with that.

35

:

Because I come from a family

of doctors and they're know,

36

:

by the book and conventional.

37

:

And I felt always a little

bit more of a free spirit.

38

:

uh, looking for some hero or

something to identify with.

39

:

And I'm like, oh my God, these people.

40

:

They're like changing the world and

creating new things and literally

41

:

shaping the reality that we live

in and they're doing it their own

42

:

way They're not conforming and

they're not, you know being lame.

43

:

They're being awesome and creative so

that that kind of like deep impression

44

:

on much of the journey since has been

like This absolute love and passion

45

:

for technology and invention meeting

what often was a very dysfunctional

46

:

relationship Um, I'm pretty ADHD.

47

:

And so most of what using a computer

has meant for me is distraction and

48

:

being addicted and 200 tabs becoming

400 tabs becoming 800 tabs the thing I'm

49

:

supposed to do getting procrastinated

just feeling like really crappy my

50

:

self esteem and willpower and somewhere

along the lines was like, okay, I'm not

51

:

going to be successful because whether

I want to be a manager at Chick fil A

52

:

or, be a, be a field anthropologist.

53

:

So much of my life's expression and work

and productivity is through a computer and

54

:

the computer is the bane of my existence.

55

:

It's what makes me feel terrible

physically, mentally, emotionally.

56

:

um.

57

:

I think my own journey of kind of

reckoning with my relationship with

58

:

technology kind of is what's interest

reform computers and technology

59

:

to be something that's a little

more humane, a little healthier,

60

:

some of us that are a little bit

on the tails of the distribution.

61

:

We're neurodivergent,

62

:

kind of me.

63

:

SCOTT: I think

64

:

a lot of can relate to that.

65

:

I

66

:

know we have four kids and our

youngest and I used to fight

67

:

all the time.

68

:

And they would

69

:

so heated, and they used to say to him,

70

:

Please don't let

71

:

technology come between

72

:

you and me.

73

:

I don't like

74

:

what it's doing

75

:

to our relationship.

76

:

Because it was like that tug

of war you were talking about.

77

:

It's

78

:

addictive.

79

:

He doesn't want to

80

:

do it.

81

:

But

82

:

it is where

83

:

he's

84

:

getting his stimulation from.

85

:

It tug

86

:

of

87

:

war for, um, kids.

88

:

know, that

89

:

fall, as

90

:

you said, towards

91

:

the

92

:

tail end of either side of the spectrum.

93

:

Um, yeah.

94

:

yeah, I think

95

:

so many people can relate to that.

96

:

You want to add something?

97

:

Well, I'm just trying to think so

our audience that we're shooting

98

:

to help are people who are parents,

young kids or want to be parents.

99

:

And

100

:

we

101

:

do try to reach

102

:

homeschoolers to tell them about Bitcoin.

103

:

But honestly, most

104

:

of our audience is

105

:

Bitcoiners who want to homeschool

106

:

And so

107

:

what I'm having a little bit of trouble

processing is how do we just take

108

:

that

109

:

amount of information?

110

:

You got blue

111

:

light,

112

:

just the technology.

113

:

You got, then you have the tech, the

addiction want, to, I want to dive

114

:

deep with addiction.

115

:

And then you've got, the,

well, I don't know if the,

116

:

okay,

117

:

well, I'm just

118

:

saying there's multiple layers.

119

:

There's

120

:

multiple

121

:

layers in there

122

:

that I think

123

:

would be helpful to our audience.

124

:

just trying to figure out how

do we just kind of take it out?

125

:

Cause

126

:

Otherwise,

127

:

we'll

128

:

be here

129

:

all day.

130

:

So,

131

:

I'm

132

:

just trying to

133

:

think, how do we

134

:

break this up so it's useful

for people it's, and it's good.

135

:

Well, I,

136

:

ANJAN: And I think there's a

thread that connects all of it.

137

:

SCOTT: Yes,

138

:

yes, definitely,

139

:

definitely.

140

:

ANJAN: I

141

:

and it's, it's been fascinating because

each of it was informed by different life

142

:

Um, but when I started to like, kind of

crack away at the problem, I was like,

143

:

oh my God, it's all the same thing.

144

:

And what the core of

it is, is essentially.

145

:

A respect for that, which is Lindy.

146

:

A respect for that which is empirical,

that's tested, that has a proof

147

:

of That is natural versus that,

which is this like human kind of

148

:

trying to be too clever by half.

149

:

And so if you think about what a modern

computer is, it's all this cleverness

150

:

that has kind of redoubled on Hey, this

is, can replace 20 different devices.

151

:

This can be replaced for

entertainment and education and that.

152

:

And so much of the addiction and

distraction comes from like, you've

153

:

put crack cocaine in the same

place you're trying to eat spinach.

154

:

It's like they were trying to

create something that is magical.

155

:

Like, Oh, you can do everything in

one place in real life, kitchen, the

156

:

place where you have your TV, the place

where you do your work, like you have

157

:

different places in your environment,

in the real world, you know, you would

158

:

go hunt and then you would come back and

be around your campfire and then you'd

159

:

have your bedroom or whatever it may be.

160

:

There's all these interesting ways in

which our psychology is shaped for a

161

:

particular world we evolved so much

of the ways that technology undermines

162

:

us is it's mismatched to the way

163

:

we're evolved.

164

:

It's mismatched to what or nature And

so even the circadian rhythm impact of

165

:

blue light and so on, that's unnatural.

166

:

You don't get blue light And all

the problems that kind of come from

167

:

The red dots, notification pings

and pongs, those are unnatural.

168

:

Of course we're going to have an

orienting response, because in

169

:

nature, if something goes bing or

this, you want to pay attention.

170

:

If something is red, you

want to pay attention.

171

:

And so, kind of across the board, what

I, the way I've kind of, God and like

172

:

self clarity around this project is, Oh,

how do we come back to natural How do we

173

:

come back to things that are invariant?

174

:

How do we come back to things

that are beyond human cleverness?

175

:

so that's where like things like Bitcoin

sovereignty really are a similar thing.

176

:

How do you come back to

something that is beyond,

177

:

SCOTT: mean, for us, the, we want

178

:

education to go back to the way

179

:

it, the, the most most decentralized

education you can have is

180

:

the parents

181

:

or the family.

182

:

And,

183

:

the separation of education

and state, I mean, it's a

184

:

similar type thing, Absolutely.

185

:

If

186

:

you're a Bitcoiner,

187

:

all those

188

:

concepts make sense.

189

:

They just, they apply

to that world as well.

190

:

So here's, here's one question for you.

191

:

Maybe it's a two part question.

192

:

So,

193

:

my point of view is, really don't

194

:

think I've ever had anybody really

195

:

push back

196

:

on this,

197

:

that

198

:

you

199

:

have to set

200

:

an example for your You have to

201

:

put your own oxygen

202

:

mask on first,

203

:

so to speak.

204

:

And if the

205

:

kids see you

206

:

checking your

207

:

phone

208

:

at night and

209

:

doing all those it'd be a little

210

:

challenging to say,

211

:

Hey, I'm

212

:

going to force you

213

:

to look at this device

214

:

or use this other device.

215

:

Um, so

216

:

maybe, um, cause

217

:

at this point still, we haven't

218

:

even

219

:

really told everybody what it is.

220

:

your product,

221

:

Right.

222

:

I

223

:

just realized that too.

224

:

early.

225

:

We're

226

:

well into this

227

:

thing.

228

:

So, uh, so let's take a step

229

:

back.

230

:

Why

231

:

don't you tell, us, take,

do the 32nd elevator speech.

232

:

What it is.

233

:

that your passion led

234

:

to.

235

:

and then we can get back to the question I

236

:

was just trying to, that I was

237

:

just trying to set up for

238

:

you.

239

:

ANJAN: sure.

240

:

Yeah.

241

:

So kind of the quest I've been

on, and it's actually been six

242

:

years from the first idea to.

243

:

Now getting the first product,

244

:

really tough The kind of

quest is how do you reinvent

245

:

computers to be like healthier?

246

:

distraction free

247

:

How do you redeem computing from being

this kind of brave new world tool of

248

:

mass, like numbing and stimulation and

addiction and control into something

249

:

that allows you to be sovereign?

250

:

that allows you to learn, that allows

you to be the highest faculties of what

251

:

a human is possible for, our, prefrontal

cortex and not our lizard And how do

252

:

you do it in a way where it's not,

it's not misaligned with your values.

253

:

It's not misaligned with your choices.

254

:

And that to me is is, you get

to instantiate your values

255

:

and so where I wanted to start

with was the actual physical.

256

:

Hardware, the actual physical substrate of

a How do I make this to me, I got really

257

:

light and how much light implicates, um,

health and circadian rhythms and mood.

258

:

the blue light of a computer, I

started to realize how actually, how

259

:

bad that and how it actually feeds.

260

:

a lot of these cycles

261

:

we could get into that.

262

:

the core of daylight was inventing a new

computer display kind of resembles paper,

263

:

that doesn't produce its own light, but

reflects the light of your environment.

264

:

see a paper book in a dark room because

it's not producing its own light.

265

:

A normal computer screen

is like a flashlight.

266

:

of paper is like an analog object.

267

:

so we were able to make a computer

screen that's like an analog object.

268

:

But where the black ink can

animate and move around.

269

:

Kind of like Marauder's Map

in Harry Potter or Diary.

270

:

the page is the same

and the ink disappears.

271

:

That's essentially what we've created.

272

:

And the main reason to do so it's blue

light free, it's flicker free, You

273

:

could use it outdoors just a lot calmer

274

:

And then what we're doing is we built

a tablet with that display technology.

275

:

So it's kind of like, you can think

about it as like a healthy iPad is

276

:

great better for you stuff on it.

277

:

addicting stuff and social

media and like that.

278

:

Instead, you can read and write and sketch

and listen to audio books educational

279

:

whatever you'd want to do that, you

know, computer can quite useful for, then

280

:

the software wise is decentralized OS.

281

:

that's where it's um, I don't know

if we've sent it to you, but yeah, we

282

:

have a whole proposal where you would,

instead of Apple pay daylight pay would

283

:

actually have lightning So Bitcoin

rails underneath it, your daylight ID.

284

:

Instead of being like Apple or

iCloud, it would actually be Noster or

285

:

SCOTT: Yep.

286

:

I

287

:

ANJAN: suddenly we don't need to convince

people or sell them on it or have them

288

:

have a clunky onboarding experience.

289

:

you, you, kind of come for this

healthier computer, but over time

290

:

we're able to create a total new stack

sovereign and decentralized and all the

291

:

rails, payment, identity, storage, key

management, and so on is And so that's

292

:

kind of what we're excited about is

like sovereignty at every level layer.

293

:

physical health, sovereignty,

nervous system, sovereignty,

294

:

like cognitive sovereignty.

295

:

We think of distraction as impingement

on your cognitive sovereignty, the

296

:

notifications, and then actual, you

297

:

So hopefully it a decentralized

298

:

computers.

299

:

And frankly, I just don't think we can,

Forever build the kind of world we want on

300

:

whether it's us or I'm pretty

301

:

SCOTT: love

302

:

to have a

303

:

competitor to replace Apple

304

:

and Google.

305

:

Well,

306

:

can we talk

307

:

specifically

308

:

for a moment about

309

:

how this impacts children?

310

:

Um, I'm currently reading this book called

311

:

The Anxious

312

:

Generation

313

:

and

314

:

yes, uh, and,

315

:

um, And that guy, the,

the author, uh, Jonathan,

316

:

Height,

317

:

He

318

:

also wrote

319

:

a book called The Coddling

320

:

Mind, and so much of it has

321

:

to do with the identification of

322

:

microaggression, you just

invent a million ways to

323

:

make yourself unhappy versus looking for

a million ways to make yourself happy.

324

:

So let's

325

:

talk a little bit

326

:

about how

327

:

social media,

328

:

or just computers

329

:

in general,

330

:

access

331

:

to the internet

332

:

affects kids.

333

:

and their

334

:

image of

335

:

self

336

:

and

337

:

the

338

:

psychological

339

:

Consequences of that.

340

:

Can you

341

:

comment on that in your design process?

342

:

ANJAN: Yeah.

343

:

And, um, if you don't mind, I'll take a

step back just to give a bit of context.

344

:

Most of what Apple has done

has been, Steve Jobs has been

345

:

implementing the vision of Xerox

PARC and a guy named They're kind

346

:

of these early pioneers who had.

347

:

Basically dreamt up the modern

computer because before then

348

:

computers were calculators, right?

349

:

Like they were not, we think of them as

so much more now, but back then it was

350

:

more in the realm of like a toaster.

351

:

It was a particular appliance he used

for And so his original intuition for

352

:

what a computer was is it's having the

library of Alexandria on your desk, It's

353

:

having something that The inner poet in

you has so much of a better way to it's

354

:

able to help you in particular ways.

355

:

If your word blocked,

it's got tools to do it.

356

:

It's an interactive animated dynamic

thing that can be personalized

357

:

and contextualized Every media in

the past you can read the book,

358

:

but you can't talk back to it.

359

:

The whole point of computers is

time, we can actually have it

360

:

go in both can interact with it.

361

:

You can animate And so actually his

original, one of the original papers he

362

:

wrote, which is one of the first kind of

like examples of what a personal computer

363

:

could be instead of these big machines, is

he has two kids holding these little tabs.

364

:

He invented the idea of the tablet

sitting in the grass, like learning.

365

:

And.

366

:

For him, that is what the vision of

computing was, is to make education

367

:

and learning fun and interesting.

368

:

Like, you know, the dopamine system that

we have is set up to reward learning

369

:

in the natural And he's like, we could

harness that with a computer because

370

:

it can be interactive and engaging

rather than, you know, something

371

:

that's kind of boring and static.

372

:

It can only allow us to better cultivate

our own agency, our own inner curiosity.

373

:

And so Alan Kay says, he's like.

374

:

Somewhere along the line, that original

vision of computing to be this great

375

:

empowerment for children, the imagination,

for creativity, for learning, was

376

:

lost with a far easier task of just

creating tools for entertainment and

377

:

communication and business people.

378

:

And he's like, that's what happened

because it was more convenient for

379

:

Steve Jobs to cater to those markets

than the original intention of

380

:

of us all, and particularly

381

:

And so I think that's where so many of

these problems there's nobody who sat

382

:

down and said, this is what I care about.

383

:

Instead they were optimizing for,

well, you're going to buy this new

384

:

one because it's got more colors.

385

:

It's more shiny.

386

:

Look at the specs.

387

:

It's faster, right?

388

:

They're like always trying

to sell you on specs.

389

:

And so kind of like peacocking,

it's just been a rat race to

390

:

more colors, more shininess, more

saturation, more stimulation.

391

:

know, my candy is going to be

more addicting than your candy.

392

:

And it's just felt like Nobody's

really sat down and said enough

393

:

is enough Like this is not being

optimized with our actual goals or

394

:

intentions in mind And guess what?

395

:

They had some good ideas

back then in the beginning.

396

:

come back and so I think it's as much the

education and the intentions we have and

397

:

things like podcasts and it's funny These

same social media things allowing us to

398

:

connect and organize and you know self

educate ourselves is making it possible

399

:

for us to try to create alternatives.

400

:

And so I think the combination of

that and Moore's Law, which the pace

401

:

of progress of how much computers

improve, doubly as fast every two years,

402

:

which has continued for a long time.

403

:

That's finally gotten to the point

where You don't really notice the

404

:

difference between the new computer You

don't, like, between the last iPhone

405

:

and the new iPhone, the new MacBook,

like, do you even notice anymore?

406

:

And what that means is you're not stuck

in a rat race of trying to spend billions

407

:

of dollars to make the state of the art

computers, otherwise you can't compete.

408

:

And I believe that's only

kind of happened in the last

409

:

and so it makes it possible

finally for upstarts To make

410

:

computers that are good enough.

411

:

You don't need to spend billions of

dollars to have the latest chips and fancy

412

:

things, but we can re imagine it with

a total different And for me, the most

413

:

important values health, which I consider

to be physical sovereignty, cognitive

414

:

sovereignty, and then actual, of monetary

415

:

the hope here is if you can re

imagine a computer where you just

416

:

carve out the good parts of it.

417

:

know, learning, reading, writing,

sketching, So on, you then can remove

418

:

all the things about a computer that

are kind of dangerous and addicting.

419

:

And then you don't need to

be like, here's 30 minutes of

420

:

screen time to your kid, right?

421

:

Like it doesn't need to be this thing

that it's like going to central park

422

:

where there's lots of drug dealers.

423

:

Like that's what a normal

computer feels like.

424

:

Like it's a beautiful park, but

you're like cautious the whole time.

425

:

Like watch out.

426

:

The goal here almost is to create a new

park that's free of drug in itself, play

427

:

to the innate curiosities of kids and

they'll, know, read books be able to

428

:

learn things that's kind of the, the goal

here is to create addicting in that way,

429

:

redeem this medium

430

:

SCOTT: can you

431

:

with with

432

:

with

433

:

daylight, can you

434

:

I would think one

435

:

of the challenges

436

:

of adoption

437

:

for it is going to be

438

:

i'm

439

:

going to have something

440

:

I need to do whatever it is.

441

:

a certain you on my laptop or there's a

442

:

certain

443

:

app.

444

:

There's a, whatever it

445

:

is.

446

:

And if I can't use

447

:

whatever I

448

:

think is critical to my

449

:

job or studies or whatever it

is, if I can't use that on there

450

:

then I, to me, it's like, okay,

451

:

here's a

452

:

roadblock

453

:

to get me

454

:

use it with the kids.

455

:

I think it's easier because

456

:

parents have

457

:

a little bit more

458

:

control over, Hey, yeah,

this is how you're going

459

:

to, if you

460

:

want to email,

461

:

here it

462

:

is.

463

:

And you give them a,

464

:

um,

465

:

a, a, safer,

466

:

healthy

467

:

tablet

468

:

as opposed to one

469

:

that,

470

:

you

471

:

know, a traditional

472

:

one.

473

:

So,

474

:

um,

475

:

I, still come back to,

476

:

you still have

477

:

to, if you're gonna get the,

adults are going to have to get on

478

:

board with

479

:

it

480

:

in

481

:

order,

482

:

I think for them to

483

:

then push on

484

:

their kids

485

:

or

486

:

introduce it to their kids.

487

:

I say

488

:

push, Um,

489

:

I

490

:

don't, I don't, I

491

:

think you could

492

:

try to do

493

:

it

494

:

just saying

495

:

here, this is only for

496

:

your kids, but

497

:

I'm assuming you're

498

:

marketing to both, right?

499

:

You're marketing to adults and kids.

500

:

You don't

501

:

care

502

:

who it is

503

:

that the

504

:

things

505

:

you're talking about from a health

perspective apply to everybody,

506

:

right?

507

:

So

508

:

how would

509

:

a,

510

:

so use me an example.

511

:

If I had a tablet, if

I had a healthy tablet,

512

:

how does

513

:

my life change

514

:

if I

515

:

have that versus what I'm

516

:

doing today?

517

:

I don't know.

518

:

I'm walk

519

:

through an example

520

:

to make it more tangible.

521

:

ANJAN: yeah.

522

:

yeah.

523

:

SCOTT: who's listening

to this saying, okay,

524

:

what

525

:

do I

526

:

do with

527

:

this information if

528

:

I

529

:

got thing?

530

:

What do I do with

531

:

it?

532

:

What changes do

533

:

I have this period where I'm

534

:

using both or

535

:

do I go

536

:

cold turkey?

537

:

Have you gone cold turkey?

538

:

Have you

539

:

do you have

540

:

another?

541

:

ANJAN: I've not gone cold turkey

542

:

SCOTT: Right.

543

:

So

544

:

if you can't do it like you're

the you're the visionary man.

545

:

You're like I'm like so

546

:

Help me understand

547

:

what I

548

:

could do with it.

549

:

Like

550

:

I want to as a

551

:

non techie

552

:

dad

553

:

What

554

:

can

555

:

ANJAN: I

556

:

think the goal, the goal

is not to go cold turkey.

557

:

It's not realistic.

558

:

And the point isn't to demonize

the existing things is to give

559

:

yourself some sanctuary to give you

some, some, like some option that

560

:

hopefully over time is more and more

561

:

And so even now we're just a tablet and

but over time we want to create a laptop

562

:

a phone a monitor So more and more of your

563

:

But um, actually the the product is

it's pretty cool How the same kind of

564

:

substrate of like I want to create a

more natural healthy computer ends up

565

:

being like Very powerful for adults

as well, and not just um, for kids.

566

:

Obviously the use case here is and

reading and writing and learning.

567

:

Um, and not, addicting distracting

568

:

but for adults, what it essentially is,

soccer Your iPad is tennis It's kind of

569

:

a lowest common denominator And what the

daylight is, is it's soccer an iPad that

570

:

is opinionated such that it's amazing for

text for reading, for writing, and so on.

571

:

And so because of the paper like

screen, you get tremendously

572

:

less eye if you're on an iPad.

573

:

So like, a lot of the Early customers

of our thing are not just parents

574

:

buying this for their kids, but they're

buying it for themselves because

575

:

they're an engineer They're a scientist.

576

:

They're a business person.

577

:

They're a hedge fund manager.

578

:

They're uh,

579

:

Whoever has to kind of like read lots

of documents and pdfs and articles and

580

:

essays Take notes and meetings and so

on They're buying it for that because

581

:

they're like, I don't want slack and

email and all these distractions and hey

582

:

the blue light The science is getting

pretty clear about how bad that is for

583

:

our circadian rhythms Instead of, you

know, checking my email at nighttime on

584

:

an iPad, I and I'm able to sleep a lot

585

:

so for parents, you can kind of

think about it as two things.

586

:

One is it's a performance device.

587

:

It's the best possible tool

for reading and writing,

588

:

particularly like PDFs like that.

589

:

And it's a healthier computer.

590

:

You can use it at nighttime not have blue

591

:

and not,

592

:

for kids, the health, physical

health side, and then the

593

:

SCOTT: do we talk before?

594

:

I

595

:

think when we talked before

this podcast, think we mentioned

596

:

homeschooling conferences to you.

597

:

Did we, am I,

598

:

did I, is that,

599

:

am I remembering correctly?

600

:

ANJAN: remember one of them,

but I don't, I don't know if

601

:

SCOTT: So I, um,

602

:

as you're talking, I'm

603

:

thinking, you know, it'd

604

:

be, it would

605

:

be good if

606

:

you could bring it to a school

because in a school, basically,

607

:

whatever, depending on

608

:

the school, it's, it's,

jurisdiction, how they make their

609

:

and what is, what their kids are

610

:

going to be using or teachers

611

:

using.

612

:

That's more

613

:

of a top

614

:

down type approach

615

:

as opposed to the decentralized.

616

:

So I think

617

:

from a,

618

:

a

619

:

value orientation, the

homeschoolers are aligned

620

:

with you.

621

:

And

622

:

I'm just thinking if

623

:

you were at a

624

:

convention, um, it's,

625

:

I mean, it's similar

626

:

to

627

:

the Bitcoin conventions or anything else.

628

:

You're going to have,

629

:

everybody has their booths

630

:

and there's going to be talks and, and.

631

:

Um, it's just focused on

632

:

education.

633

:

I think

634

:

the message of a healthier

alternative would resonate

635

:

with

636

:

that particular, that

particular group of people.

637

:

I, I,

638

:

would

639

:

agree

640

:

with

641

:

that.

642

:

So the homeschoolers kind

643

:

of fall

644

:

into

645

:

two subcategories,

646

:

very, very

647

:

generally speaking.

648

:

You have the ones that are just rejecting

649

:

modern

650

:

technology

651

:

and will not let

652

:

their kids touch a phone.

653

:

They

654

:

don't have computer they're making their

own clothes, like, you know, Little

655

:

House on the Prairie kind of thing.

656

:

They are just trying to stay as pure

657

:

as

658

:

possible.

659

:

And then you have the other homeschoolers,

660

:

and they recognize that

661

:

in

662

:

order for their kids to grow up

and be competitive in society,

663

:

they must engage in teaching.

664

:

technology.

665

:

So then that's the group that's really

going to struggle with that tug of war.

666

:

And it's always come,

667

:

it always seems to come down I will

668

:

give you, it's like a barter system.

669

:

If you this, you get

670

:

30 minutes an iPad or something,

671

:

which

672

:

I really hated

673

:

doing with my kids

674

:

because I, even those 30

minutes, when I give it

675

:

to them, I'm like, I'm

literally feeding them poison.

676

:

You know,

677

:

it's like, I'll

678

:

let

679

:

you have

680

:

ice cream spinach, but then you're

681

:

also having

682

:

the ice cream.

683

:

And is that really better than just

eating the ice cream if you have

684

:

some spinach in there

685

:

mixed up?

686

:

You know

687

:

what I'm saying?

688

:

So I love that

689

:

this resource

690

:

is now available.

691

:

You wanted to say something?

692

:

Yeah, I disagree with you

693

:

a little bit.

694

:

I just, just, I mean,

695

:

I don't,

696

:

that category is not completely true

697

:

because

698

:

you have The parents that

699

:

are more Jeff

700

:

Booth like, they don't know Jeff Booth,

but they're Jeff Booth like they're trying

701

:

to use a tool that can enhance education.

702

:

I

703

:

mean, we just, you said

704

:

it

705

:

earlier,

706

:

right?

707

:

In world, you can get

708

:

any information, any

709

:

language, anytime now because

710

:

of the internet.

711

:

And now you can do it while

712

:

you're

713

:

sitting the lawn

714

:

or

715

:

in the car.

716

:

So the quality of

717

:

education should be improving and the

cost should be coming down, right?

718

:

Technology should be helping.

719

:

There are parents that are looking

720

:

at.

721

:

These

722

:

pads and Khan

723

:

Academy and

724

:

anything else that you

can do online and they're

725

:

saying these are the things

that we can do to enhance our

726

:

kids education

727

:

There are

728

:

others that are saying that might

just say I'm really tired right

729

:

now And I just want my kids to

730

:

leave

731

:

me alone for a

732

:

little while.

733

:

So I'm going to give them some like a, a

734

:

Cartoon, I'm going to give them a phone

735

:

I'm going to use this

736

:

use this

737

:

Tali: more

738

:

as a as a escape

739

:

SCOTT: Because

740

:

I just need to lay

741

:

down for a

742

:

few

743

:

minutes so

744

:

the kids can

745

:

put on

746

:

a

747

:

Tali: movie

748

:

or

749

:

take

750

:

out

751

:

a laptop.

752

:

SCOTT: So, I'm

753

:

going to give people the benefit of the

754

:

doubt.

755

:

Tali: I

756

:

think

757

:

SCOTT: applying this kind of technology is

758

:

Tali: a way

759

:

of

760

:

SCOTT: improving

761

:

Tali: education,

762

:

SCOTT: but it's also

improving their health

763

:

Tali: they're doing it.

764

:

SCOTT: I

765

:

absolutely

766

:

Tali: with

767

:

that.

768

:

I

769

:

don't

770

:

SCOTT: think with that

771

:

Tali: at all.

772

:

SCOTT: Um, I just

773

:

know that

774

:

the,

775

:

so

776

:

I'm thinking back in

777

:

our own

778

:

Our

779

:

kids

780

:

Tali: didn't have access to a phone.

781

:

until

782

:

SCOTT: they were

783

:

old enough to

784

:

Tali: be in different club and activities.

785

:

SCOTT: And they

786

:

were

787

:

in leadership roles

788

:

and everybody was

789

:

Tali: communicating through my one phone.

790

:

SCOTT: And

791

:

when they

792

:

say Lindbergh, I can

793

:

never tell who

794

:

they're So I finally

795

:

Tali: just

796

:

said,

797

:

SCOTT: just,

798

:

everybody

799

:

get your own phone so

800

:

you can coordinate, right?

801

:

The problem with that is the moment

802

:

you hand

803

:

them

804

:

Tali: the

805

:

phone,

806

:

SCOTT: they now have

807

:

access what

808

:

Tali: they

809

:

said

810

:

before

811

:

SCOTT: a carnivore,

812

:

Tali: uh, not carnivore.

813

:

SCOTT: carnival

814

:

of

815

:

choices that are not always good for them.

816

:

is at

817

:

their fingertips and you

have the parental controls,

818

:

but that Raises another issue of distrust

and that distrust starts to build between

819

:

Tali: you and the kids, which

820

:

SCOTT: I also

821

:

did not enjoy

822

:

I don't agree with

823

:

that.

824

:

I

825

:

mean, I know we

826

:

have to

827

:

Tali: them, but

828

:

SCOTT: it'll be so

829

:

much easier

830

:

if I could have handed them one

831

:

Tali: your

832

:

SCOTT: Tablets

833

:

and go

834

:

go crazy and know that it's gonna

835

:

be okay

836

:

So what

837

:

are

838

:

you gonna give the kids

a nostril like they're

839

:

now they

840

:

have their own

841

:

privacy and they can

842

:

go look

843

:

at

844

:

Tali: own stuff

845

:

SCOTT: Like how do

846

:

you

847

:

Tali: do you okay?

848

:

ANJAN: I think, I think it's

realizing that a lot of these

849

:

things are backend rails, right?

850

:

So you don't even need to know about it.

851

:

You don't need to think about it, but

now these companies can't So there's

852

:

going to be potentially new front ends.

853

:

There's going to be new services be

a part of, but Hey, if they ever do

854

:

something that you're misaligned with

855

:

And so that's where I feel like

that's what's happens in the

856

:

natural there are top predators.

857

:

There are keystone species.

858

:

But they don't, they don't have,

they're not a gatekeeper can collect

859

:

rent on the environment, right?

860

:

It's more rhizomatic.

861

:

And so the goal would be for

software to match that And I agree,

862

:

like we have to be realistic.

863

:

Like it's kind of interesting, like,

uh, some of the early customers

864

:

who have daylights who are parents.

865

:

So one of the examples I thought was

really cool was previously, um, yeah,

866

:

their kid was only allowed to get.

867

:

You know, 30 minutes of screen time on

Friday, you know, another 30 minutes

868

:

over the weekend, they got like a

restricted amount of screen time and

869

:

no gadgets allowed in their bedroom.

870

:

But now with the daylight, um, they're

allowed to kind of have unlimited

871

:

screen time on their daylight.

872

:

Cause it's, but what are

they doing on their day?

873

:

And they're allowed to

bring it into the bedroom.

874

:

It's, uh, he's on Kindle and he's

reading, or he's listening to audio

875

:

books and audible that the parents have

loaded up or he's playing chess on it.

876

:

Cause it's actually like

really good for playing chess.

877

:

Um, And he's also,

878

:

brilliant.

879

:

It's like an educational

game thing called Brilliant.

880

:

you like rudimentary math and science and

881

:

and the idea is, as a parent, you're

like kind of okay if they have

882

:

unlimited screen time on those type of

883

:

Tali: Yes.

884

:

Yeah.

885

:

ANJAN: my point is the

physiological underestimated,

886

:

the blue light over activates and

stimulates your dopamine system.

887

:

So then when you're not on the

device, your brain is confused

888

:

because its baseline has been shifted.

889

:

think that's where a lot of the ADD

esque symptoms are coming from is our

890

:

attentional and dopamine rewired so

that's kind of the goal is to level

891

:

the playing So there's a second.

892

:

Kind of parental use case kind of similar

to what you're saying where they're

893

:

like, okay, sometimes I just need to like

have the kid watch Cocomelon or Peppa

894

:

the Pig, but it's now like not heroin.

895

:

It's like right?

896

:

And like candy is not necessarily like

good for you, but it's also not And

897

:

so the way one parent described it is

what I like about the daylight is it's

898

:

more interesting throwing a tantrum or

picking your nose, but less interesting

899

:

And so there's a way, like, you'll

900

:

never go to the backyard if you

got Peppa the Pig in front of you,

901

:

but on a daylight, you might be

satisfied by Peppa the Pig and

902

:

you might also And I think that

because we've leveled the playing

903

:

Tali: Yeah.

904

:

Yeah.

905

:

SCOTT: Yeah.

906

:

Can you, um,

907

:

I'm a little

908

:

distracted

909

:

too.

910

:

Tali: do

911

:

you have

912

:

SCOTT: resources

913

:

that impacted you

914

:

that

915

:

you

916

:

would recommend to parents that want

917

:

to

918

:

understand just how

919

:

Tali: bad

920

:

that negative impact you

described of getting,

921

:

SCOTT: so,

922

:

you

923

:

know, the kids are exposed

924

:

Tali: to

925

:

the,

926

:

to

927

:

the, The the negative.

928

:

SCOTT: The

929

:

blue

930

:

Tali: light,

931

:

as an

932

:

SCOTT: example,

933

:

and it messes

934

:

up

935

:

their sleep, or it messes

936

:

up their

937

:

circadian

938

:

rhythm, or

939

:

messes

940

:

Tali: whatever it

941

:

SCOTT: is,

942

:

which has

943

:

secondary and

944

:

tertiary

945

:

effects,

946

:

Tali: right?

947

:

ANJAN: There's another part of it called

948

:

Flickr, by

949

:

SCOTT: flicker.

950

:

So, perfect.

951

:

So,

952

:

I,

953

:

I

954

:

personally

955

:

want

956

:

Tali: learn

957

:

SCOTT: more.

958

:

Do you have one

959

:

or two resources that you would recommend?

960

:

Tali: Because,

961

:

SCOTT: I'm

962

:

just imagining, again,

963

:

Tali: I'm

964

:

thinking

965

:

of

966

:

SCOTT: someone listening to this,

their parents are going to be

967

:

a parent,

968

:

and

969

:

they

970

:

Tali: hear

971

:

this

972

:

stuff.

973

:

SCOTT: And it's, it's,

974

:

one

975

:

thing for somebody to

get a podcast and say,

976

:

blue

977

:

light

978

:

bad,

979

:

and flickering bad,

980

:

Tali: and

981

:

whatever.

982

:

SCOTT: But if there

983

:

was a way

984

:

to say,

985

:

here's

986

:

a resource, it's a

987

:

documentary, it's a, it's a book,

988

:

Tali: it's

989

:

a podcast,

990

:

SCOTT: what were,

991

:

can you give one or two

992

:

Tali: recommendations

993

:

SCOTT: that

994

:

might

995

:

Tali: helpful?

996

:

ANJAN: yeah, I would, um, well, one guy

who I think, was extremely influential for

997

:

me was John Ott, who was kind of an early

pioneer in revealing that, uh, Medicine

998

:

did not quite appreciate how absolutely

light mood to cognition metabolism.

999

:

so if, if you look up his book, health

and light, it was written a long time ago,

:

00:33:32,910 --> 00:33:36,630

And so he's got a cool video also you

can find on YouTube where they have a

:

00:33:36,630 --> 00:33:42,540

classroom with flickering fluorescent

it's kind of a time lapse the kids are

:

00:33:42,540 --> 00:33:46,160

rambunctious and they're kind of like not

really paying attention and they're not

:

00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:52,360

focused and fidgeting and all that and

then they have this the same classroom

:

00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:58,290

but the lights are replaced with non

flickering incandescent bulbs and

:

00:33:58,290 --> 00:34:03,999

suddenly there's like 60 to 70 percent

less fidgeting and rambunctiousness

:

00:34:07,130 --> 00:34:12,050

His point is, uh, we've gotten so used

to these environments that are unnatural.

:

00:34:12,370 --> 00:34:15,030

We don't realize what it's

doing to our nervous system

:

00:34:15,349 --> 00:34:17,040

and, uh, and what it's doing to

:

00:34:18,509 --> 00:34:19,029

Tali: You know,

:

00:34:19,755 --> 00:34:20,159

ANJAN: So,

:

00:34:20,339 --> 00:34:20,688

Tali: wow,

:

00:34:21,429 --> 00:34:21,949

do phones

:

00:34:21,949 --> 00:34:24,989

have the same, flicker type of issue

:

00:34:25,034 --> 00:34:28,119

ANJAN: so that's, that's, the

problem with modern phones and

:

00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,770

laptops and iPads and tablets.

:

00:34:30,190 --> 00:34:36,409

Is not only do they have blue

light, they have And so a flicker

:

00:34:36,690 --> 00:34:38,820

is nerdy do you want me to

:

00:34:39,385 --> 00:34:40,125

SCOTT: That's up to you.

:

00:34:40,125 --> 00:34:42,965

I'm just I, I, would say go

a little nerdy, yeah, because

:

00:34:43,185 --> 00:34:43,745

Tali: go nerdy.

:

00:34:43,844 --> 00:34:44,205

SCOTT: let's,

:

00:34:44,475 --> 00:34:44,775

I

:

00:34:45,094 --> 00:34:46,801

want people who hear this to say, that

:

00:34:46,801 --> 00:34:46,994

really

:

00:34:46,995 --> 00:34:48,175

piques my interest.

:

00:34:48,215 --> 00:34:48,764

I think this is

:

00:34:48,764 --> 00:34:49,175

something that can

:

00:34:49,335 --> 00:34:50,065

Tali: my family.

:

00:34:50,804 --> 00:34:51,205

SCOTT: Because if

:

00:34:51,205 --> 00:34:51,304

they

:

00:34:51,545 --> 00:34:52,164

Tali: have that,

:

00:34:53,330 --> 00:34:53,860

SCOTT: then it's just,

:

00:34:53,929 --> 00:34:55,110

ah, okay, it's interesting.

:

00:34:55,230 --> 00:34:55,429

This

:

00:34:55,429 --> 00:34:55,719

guy's

:

00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:55,909

on a

:

00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:56,540

mission, his six

:

00:34:56,540 --> 00:34:56,719

year

:

00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,580

quest to stop flickering.

:

00:34:58,610 --> 00:34:58,730

You

:

00:34:58,730 --> 00:34:59,920

know, like he's It doesn't

:

00:35:00,170 --> 00:35:01,090

have the same impact

:

00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:02,180

as, this

:

00:35:02,225 --> 00:35:02,565

Tali: helps

:

00:35:02,645 --> 00:35:02,675

the

:

00:35:02,685 --> 00:35:02,935

health

:

00:35:02,935 --> 00:35:03,035

of

:

00:35:03,035 --> 00:35:03,235

my

:

00:35:03,570 --> 00:35:04,200

SCOTT: family.

:

00:35:04,510 --> 00:35:04,680

My

:

00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,640

kid is going to be able to

focus better, better education,

:

00:35:07,820 --> 00:35:08,040

Tali: life.

:

00:35:09,370 --> 00:35:10,210

SCOTT: That's compelling

:

00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:10,430

Tali: me.

:

00:35:10,430 --> 00:35:10,780

So get

:

00:35:10,780 --> 00:35:11,140

nerdy.

:

00:35:11,620 --> 00:35:12,479

ANJAN: Hey, I'll get into it.

:

00:35:12,530 --> 00:35:17,470

And might sound like a hyperbole,

but I don't think it's that far away.

:

00:35:17,510 --> 00:35:20,600

I think like five or 10 years from

now, we'll look back and be like,

:

00:35:21,050 --> 00:35:26,190

Oh, our relationship with technology

and the way computers were set up.

:

00:35:26,740 --> 00:35:30,730

It was like, it was like

smoking and secondhand smoking.

:

00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,220

Like we didn't realize actually how bad

it was and how many externalities there

:

00:35:34,220 --> 00:35:36,600

are until we did it for a while, right?

:

00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,950

And it's the same thing

with like lead and gasoline.

:

00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,780

It's like we look back and we're like,

holy crap, why were we doing that?

:

00:35:42,430 --> 00:35:45,250

I think it'll be a similar thing here

with the blue light, the flicker,

:

00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:46,820

the distraction, the addiction,

:

00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:49,620

Tali: Hmm.

:

00:35:50,245 --> 00:35:52,615

ANJAN: We're kind of on the

precipice of it now, where

:

00:35:52,615 --> 00:35:53,890

the academic literature around

:

00:35:56,017 --> 00:35:57,395

starting to really come through.

:

00:35:57,685 --> 00:36:03,105

And people like Jonathan Haidt, publishing

The Anxious Generation and pulling the

:

00:36:03,105 --> 00:36:05,995

science and and it's still really early.

:

00:36:06,015 --> 00:36:06,085

I

:

00:36:08,234 --> 00:36:12,235

so Flickr, what Flickr is, and it's

something modern, um, you don't

:

00:36:12,235 --> 00:36:15,855

get this with incandescent bulbs

and lighting of the That's what's

:

00:36:15,855 --> 00:36:16,834

super interesting about this.

:

00:36:16,834 --> 00:36:18,755

This is kind of like a

new societal experiment.

:

00:36:19,550 --> 00:36:22,630

That we're kind of running:

:

00:36:24,931 --> 00:36:28,910

know, we really don't know, we haven't

really run this essentially what happens

:

00:36:28,910 --> 00:36:32,390

in modern lighting, like the leds and

:

00:36:35,529 --> 00:36:38,100

is the way they change brightness

is not like the way leds

:

00:36:41,730 --> 00:36:44,860

the way they change brightness,

put the brightness less and you put

:

00:36:44,860 --> 00:36:48,590

the brightness more, the way they

change brightness is they change.

:

00:36:49,905 --> 00:36:53,360

In one second, what percentage

of the time it's on versus

:

00:36:56,558 --> 00:36:57,025

And so,

:

00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:57,430

Tali: Yeah.

:

00:36:58,245 --> 00:37:00,795

ANJAN: so if you want to be

100 percent bright as an led,

:

00:37:00,795 --> 00:37:02,305

you're on for the entire time.

:

00:37:02,344 --> 00:37:03,780

And if you want to be

0 percent brightness,

:

00:37:06,195 --> 00:37:06,865

But if you want it to be

:

00:37:06,865 --> 00:37:11,215

50 percent brightness, if I was on

for half a second and off for half

:

00:37:11,215 --> 00:37:13,225

a second, you would see that, right?

:

00:37:13,225 --> 00:37:17,620

It would like visibly look like

it turned on and And so they were

:

00:37:17,620 --> 00:37:19,380

like, okay, we can't do this.

:

00:37:19,850 --> 00:37:24,790

So they like realized, huh, there's

actually an optical illusion where if

:

00:37:24,809 --> 00:37:28,349

I'm on for five milliseconds and off

for five milliseconds and on for five

:

00:37:28,349 --> 00:37:32,340

milliseconds and off for five milliseconds

and on, you don't notice it as click,

:

00:37:32,340 --> 00:37:33,529

click, click, click, click, click, click.

:

00:37:33,570 --> 00:37:38,370

You just notice it as a darker But if

I'm on for seven seconds and off for

:

00:37:38,370 --> 00:37:41,520

three and on for seven and off for three,

it just looks like a brighter white.

:

00:37:42,890 --> 00:37:48,600

And if, and so this playing around with

the proportion of on and off, but doing it

:

00:37:48,620 --> 00:37:53,390

in these really, really, really small time

is actually how they change brightness

:

00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:59,459

it's based on kind of old

perceptual science that like,

:

00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:00,810

oh, under this threshold, humans

:

00:38:03,375 --> 00:38:03,615

Right.

:

00:38:03,615 --> 00:38:06,185

And they didn't really have great

ways of testing that they'll

:

00:38:06,215 --> 00:38:07,115

put people in front of it.

:

00:38:07,115 --> 00:38:09,055

And they're like, does

this give you a headache?

:

00:38:09,405 --> 00:38:10,305

You know, how do you feel?

:

00:38:10,315 --> 00:38:11,125

Do you notice this?

:

00:38:11,145 --> 00:38:11,785

And they're like, great.

:

00:38:12,204 --> 00:38:15,725

But no one sat there and did it for

six months or a year or multiple years.

:

00:38:15,725 --> 00:38:18,275

Or, you know, back then they

spent an hour on a computer,

:

00:38:18,284 --> 00:38:20,164

not the 10 hours we spend now.

:

00:38:20,495 --> 00:38:23,640

So this is a total like

untested societal experiment.

:

00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:30,170

And the basic theory is actually, they

didn't understand that even in the moment,

:

00:38:30,250 --> 00:38:32,050

you cannot consciously perceive it.

:

00:38:32,620 --> 00:38:36,150

There is a subconscious perceptual load

:

00:38:39,773 --> 00:38:39,920

SCOTT: just

:

00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:40,040

had

:

00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:40,390

a flash.

:

00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:40,920

Tali: Yeah.

:

00:38:42,170 --> 00:38:43,200

SCOTT: I remember,

:

00:38:43,229 --> 00:38:43,950

Tali: I remember

:

00:38:44,860 --> 00:38:45,030

SCOTT: there

:

00:38:45,030 --> 00:38:45,260

was a

:

00:38:45,790 --> 00:38:46,070

thing, I

:

00:38:46,070 --> 00:38:46,170

don't

:

00:38:46,170 --> 00:38:47,210

know if it was in the marketing

:

00:38:47,220 --> 00:38:47,680

Tali: class

:

00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:48,340

or what it was

:

00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:49,420

where, uh,

:

00:38:49,593 --> 00:38:49,800

SCOTT: when

:

00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:50,840

the movies, when movies

:

00:38:50,850 --> 00:38:51,060

first

:

00:38:51,060 --> 00:38:51,500

came out

:

00:38:52,170 --> 00:38:52,330

and

:

00:38:52,330 --> 00:38:53,080

they were actual

:

00:38:53,450 --> 00:38:53,910

Tali: film,

:

00:38:54,229 --> 00:38:54,509

right?

:

00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:55,970

ANJAN: yeah, subliminal

:

00:38:56,220 --> 00:38:56,620

SCOTT: They would

:

00:38:56,620 --> 00:38:57,390

put a subliminal

:

00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:58,290

message in there with,

:

00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,340

with Coke or popcorn and

:

00:39:00,370 --> 00:39:01,770

people would suddenly get thirsty and

:

00:39:01,895 --> 00:39:02,135

Tali: buy

:

00:39:02,165 --> 00:39:02,585

more

:

00:39:03,530 --> 00:39:04,240

SCOTT: stuff and they

:

00:39:04,250 --> 00:39:05,170

couldn't perceive it

:

00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:05,880

because

:

00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:06,930

it was

:

00:39:07,060 --> 00:39:09,230

maybe one frame out of, I

:

00:39:09,410 --> 00:39:09,990

don't know what the

:

00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:10,610

numbers are.

:

00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,360

If it was 10 or 20, whatever

the number of, of like

:

00:39:13,364 --> 00:39:13,654

Tali: frames

:

00:39:13,655 --> 00:39:13,725

would

:

00:39:13,745 --> 00:39:13,895

be,

:

00:39:13,895 --> 00:39:14,015

they

:

00:39:14,020 --> 00:39:14,250

SCOTT: just,

:

00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:15,290

they would flick

:

00:39:15,290 --> 00:39:15,390

it

:

00:39:15,390 --> 00:39:15,630

in there.

:

00:39:15,630 --> 00:39:16,850

So I couldn't

:

00:39:16,850 --> 00:39:17,130

see

:

00:39:17,130 --> 00:39:17,310

it.

:

00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:18,400

And,

:

00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:18,790

uh,

:

00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:19,640

I hadn't,

:

00:39:19,690 --> 00:39:19,950

I hadn't

:

00:39:19,950 --> 00:39:20,150

thought

:

00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:20,370

about

:

00:39:20,370 --> 00:39:20,560

that

:

00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:20,780

for,

:

00:39:21,050 --> 00:39:21,290

for

:

00:39:21,295 --> 00:39:21,554

Tali: years.

:

00:39:21,554 --> 00:39:22,249

So what is the.

:

00:39:23,090 --> 00:39:23,380

What

:

00:39:23,380 --> 00:39:23,530

is

:

00:39:23,530 --> 00:39:24,250

SCOTT: the damage

:

00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,120

Tali: these constant flickering?

:

00:39:26,370 --> 00:39:26,640

SCOTT: Well, that's

:

00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:27,190

a great question.

:

00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:28,020

Tali: Causing

:

00:39:28,590 --> 00:39:28,800

to

:

00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:29,040

your

:

00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,739

cognitive energy efficiency functioning.

:

00:39:33,820 --> 00:39:37,350

ANJAN: Uh, I think it could be understood

in terms of like three, kind of

:

00:39:38,330 --> 00:39:40,690

depending on where you are in the curve.

:

00:39:41,020 --> 00:39:47,330

So on the extreme end of the curve, if

you have a concussion or a traumatic

:

00:39:47,420 --> 00:39:53,750

brain injury, and actually even sometimes

PTSD, um, a common thing, called post

:

00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:59,630

concussion syndrome is screens really,

really painful You get nausea, you

:

00:39:59,630 --> 00:40:01,500

get headaches, you get eye strain.

:

00:40:01,570 --> 00:40:03,180

It's like really, really uncomfortable.

:

00:40:04,150 --> 00:40:09,300

And the best theory is your brain doesn't

have much of a buffer now in that state.

:

00:40:09,790 --> 00:40:16,440

And so that little bit of load from the

flicker actually really affects And so

:

00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,820

that that's one of the theories where

the the light and the flickering of the

:

00:40:19,820 --> 00:40:25,840

light the emissive light Why it's so

not one of the things they really stay

:

00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,730

away from and so that's a really good

evidence that like we basically all have

:

00:40:30,730 --> 00:40:34,675

this buffer You And when we don't have

that buffer, it actually affects us.

:

00:40:34,705 --> 00:40:37,035

It's like when, you know, when you're

sleep deprived, it's easier to get sick.

:

00:40:37,045 --> 00:40:37,305

It's a

:

00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:38,400

Tali: Yeah.

:

00:40:38,429 --> 00:40:38,839

Wow.

:

00:40:38,905 --> 00:40:41,095

ANJAN: So that's like

pretty strong evidence.

:

00:40:41,095 --> 00:40:43,144

We're all kind of dealing

with it subacutely.

:

00:40:43,185 --> 00:40:44,510

And when you get concussed, it becomes

:

00:40:45,590 --> 00:40:45,810

Tali: Does

:

00:40:45,904 --> 00:40:46,970

ANJAN: so that's kind of one effect,

:

00:40:47,949 --> 00:40:48,489

Tali: well, just

:

00:40:48,490 --> 00:40:49,109

to continue on

:

00:40:49,109 --> 00:40:49,299

that.

:

00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:49,670

So

:

00:40:50,439 --> 00:40:50,639

did

:

00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:50,750

the

:

00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,270

John Ott health

:

00:40:52,270 --> 00:40:52,690

and light

:

00:40:52,830 --> 00:40:53,350

cover

:

00:40:53,660 --> 00:40:54,170

flickering

:

00:40:54,170 --> 00:40:54,200

or

:

00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:55,020

is that too early?

:

00:40:55,994 --> 00:40:58,204

ANJAN: uh, they covered in

the context of fluorescent

:

00:40:59,100 --> 00:40:59,340

Tali: That

:

00:40:59,340 --> 00:41:00,280

was where everyone is.

:

00:41:00,375 --> 00:41:04,210

ANJAN: leds and kind of flickering

leds and this super high frame rate

:

00:41:06,355 --> 00:41:06,795

Tali: So.

:

00:41:07,295 --> 00:41:09,505

Wait, but he was going to

tell us the other effects.

:

00:41:10,325 --> 00:41:11,275

Okay, I was just trying to,

:

00:41:11,495 --> 00:41:11,655

I was

:

00:41:11,655 --> 00:41:11,775

trying

:

00:41:11,775 --> 00:41:11,825

to

:

00:41:11,825 --> 00:41:12,125

get clear

:

00:41:12,125 --> 00:41:12,205

on

:

00:41:12,205 --> 00:41:12,745

the effects,

:

00:41:12,795 --> 00:41:13,055

yeah.

:

00:41:13,115 --> 00:41:13,335

Yeah.

:

00:41:13,650 --> 00:41:15,900

ANJAN: Yeah, I'm happy to

come back around the other.

:

00:41:15,910 --> 00:41:20,780

So the other effect is essentially

what that is what some people feel

:

00:41:20,780 --> 00:41:26,100

very acutely, but actually, the vast

majority of us feel it at level.

:

00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:27,680

And so there's,

:

00:41:29,830 --> 00:41:32,009

I guess I'll give the evidence

second and give you the frame.

:

00:41:32,010 --> 00:41:35,245

First, the frame here is like, Do you

know when you like kind of have to start

:

00:41:35,275 --> 00:41:38,065

really going to the bathroom, you really

have to go pee, you start like tapping

:

00:41:38,065 --> 00:41:40,875

your leg and you start being a little

more distractible and you interrupt

:

00:41:41,505 --> 00:41:45,074

it's because there's some underlying

discomfort that you're then having to

:

00:41:48,694 --> 00:41:51,694

That's essentially what's happening

with where there's like some

:

00:41:51,744 --> 00:41:54,970

underlying a parasympathetic

:

00:41:57,881 --> 00:41:58,380

little jacked.

:

00:41:59,805 --> 00:42:02,895

the theory is that's what's driving

some of the distractibility.

:

00:42:03,290 --> 00:42:06,780

It's the same way you're kind

of like, you to stim or be

:

00:42:06,780 --> 00:42:08,530

distracted when you have to go pee,

:

00:42:08,780 --> 00:42:11,969

you're getting a similar thing where

there's an, there's almost like an anxiety

:

00:42:15,820 --> 00:42:20,089

away from, the, the evidence for that

is there's a phenomenon called screen

:

00:42:21,930 --> 00:42:24,520

sleep apnea is when you're sleeping

and you, you know, you don't breathe,

:

00:42:25,491 --> 00:42:29,880

they called it screen apnea, Where

what happens in these studies is when

:

00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:38,140

you're on an emissive or iPad, emitting

light, bright and flickering, um,

:

00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:44,060

your breathing your tidal volume gets

shallower, your breathing rate goes down.

:

00:42:44,829 --> 00:42:48,540

And so there is another layer

of physiological anxiety from

:

00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:55,900

breathing You're literally

more so it's kind of this.

:

00:42:56,675 --> 00:42:58,515

Crazy vicious cycle where

:

00:43:01,615 --> 00:43:06,805

You are so much more stuck to the dopamine

slot machine physiologically at nervous

:

00:43:06,805 --> 00:43:11,605

system level compromised you're a little

more on edge and so of course it's like

:

00:43:11,614 --> 00:43:14,435

it's like binge eating, you know When

you're stressed you binge eat they're

:

00:43:14,485 --> 00:43:17,655

kind of doing a similar thing here and

then you you keep hitting facebook You

:

00:43:17,655 --> 00:43:22,105

keep hitting hitting your And so it's

fascinating how the the software and the

:

00:43:22,105 --> 00:43:24,010

hardware are working together in this

:

00:43:27,510 --> 00:43:31,870

there's a way in which what we're

trying to do Actually really targets the

:

00:43:31,870 --> 00:43:35,300

attention economy at its core Because

when there isn't the same stimming

:

00:43:35,310 --> 00:43:37,480

when there isn't the same need to binge

:

00:43:39,630 --> 00:43:41,160

What happens what

happens to their business

:

00:43:47,113 --> 00:43:49,200

it's like ozempic and junk what happens

:

00:43:52,070 --> 00:43:52,205

SCOTT: Well,

:

00:43:52,245 --> 00:43:52,804

Tali: there's also

:

00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:53,240

SCOTT: compound

:

00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:53,840

effects, right?

:

00:43:53,900 --> 00:43:54,340

If you're

:

00:43:54,370 --> 00:43:55,390

chronically stressed,

:

00:43:56,094 --> 00:43:56,720

you're chronically

:

00:43:57,004 --> 00:43:57,304

Tali: sleep

:

00:43:57,305 --> 00:43:57,915

deprived,

:

00:43:59,180 --> 00:43:59,420

SCOTT: there

:

00:43:59,420 --> 00:43:59,500

are a

:

00:43:59,525 --> 00:44:00,025

Tali: whole host

:

00:44:00,025 --> 00:44:00,285

of other

:

00:44:00,290 --> 00:44:00,610

SCOTT: health

:

00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:01,660

issues

:

00:44:01,690 --> 00:44:02,180

and

:

00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:04,090

you'll never be able to perform your best

:

00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:05,130

at work, or in this

:

00:44:05,130 --> 00:44:06,500

case if we're talking about education

:

00:44:06,505 --> 00:44:06,645

Tali: with

:

00:44:06,655 --> 00:44:06,815

the

:

00:44:06,815 --> 00:44:07,165

school,

:

00:44:07,264 --> 00:44:07,664

um,

:

00:44:08,285 --> 00:44:08,575

kids

:

00:44:08,575 --> 00:44:08,835

learning.

:

00:44:09,780 --> 00:44:10,020

SCOTT: And

:

00:44:10,030 --> 00:44:10,310

Tali: so,

:

00:44:10,310 --> 00:44:11,150

I'm just thinking,

:

00:44:12,140 --> 00:44:12,850

SCOTT: multiplying

:

00:44:12,990 --> 00:44:13,510

Tali: you're talking

:

00:44:13,510 --> 00:44:13,940

SCOTT: about,

:

00:44:14,690 --> 00:44:15,010

time,

:

00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:15,930

throughout

:

00:44:15,940 --> 00:44:16,070

Tali: a

:

00:44:16,190 --> 00:44:16,800

child's

:

00:44:17,590 --> 00:44:18,200

development,

:

00:44:19,370 --> 00:44:19,740

it's,

:

00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:20,010

it's

:

00:44:20,019 --> 00:44:20,229

more

:

00:44:20,230 --> 00:44:20,360

SCOTT: than

:

00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:20,730

just

:

00:44:21,130 --> 00:44:21,320

an

:

00:44:21,330 --> 00:44:21,900

hour

:

00:44:22,110 --> 00:44:22,350

Tali: of

:

00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:22,940

flickering.

:

00:44:23,712 --> 00:44:23,930

SCOTT: It's

:

00:44:23,930 --> 00:44:24,560

now,

:

00:44:24,620 --> 00:44:25,100

okay, now

:

00:44:25,230 --> 00:44:26,149

Tali: in that different state,

:

00:44:27,193 --> 00:44:27,410

SCOTT: it's going

:

00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:27,530

to be

:

00:44:27,540 --> 00:44:28,210

multiple hours

:

00:44:28,210 --> 00:44:28,650

after that or

:

00:44:28,650 --> 00:44:29,690

days, whatever the recovery

:

00:44:29,690 --> 00:44:30,210

is, they're going to

:

00:44:30,220 --> 00:44:30,570

have more

:

00:44:30,660 --> 00:44:30,740

Tali: it

:

00:44:30,770 --> 00:44:30,880

in

:

00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:31,510

between then.

:

00:44:32,860 --> 00:44:33,210

SCOTT: And I'm,

:

00:44:33,370 --> 00:44:35,940

I'm guessing, now you're in

this chronic feedback loop

:

00:44:36,070 --> 00:44:36,230

Tali: you're

:

00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:36,620

talking

:

00:44:36,620 --> 00:44:36,960

about.

:

00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:38,580

SCOTT: And

:

00:44:39,260 --> 00:44:39,540

Now

:

00:44:39,540 --> 00:44:39,780

you,

:

00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:41,120

now your ability

:

00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:41,280

to

:

00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:41,630

absorb

:

00:44:41,650 --> 00:44:42,260

material

:

00:44:42,750 --> 00:44:44,430

and learn new concepts, problem solve,

:

00:44:44,435 --> 00:44:44,975

Tali: be creative,

:

00:44:44,985 --> 00:44:45,145

fill

:

00:44:45,145 --> 00:44:45,195

in

:

00:44:45,195 --> 00:44:45,265

the

:

00:44:45,270 --> 00:44:45,590

SCOTT: blank,

:

00:44:46,315 --> 00:44:46,745

Tali: um,

:

00:44:47,245 --> 00:44:47,415

Now

:

00:44:47,415 --> 00:44:47,634

that's

:

00:44:47,634 --> 00:44:48,294

compromised.

:

00:44:49,205 --> 00:44:49,665

So

:

00:44:50,260 --> 00:44:50,650

SCOTT: it's,

:

00:44:50,990 --> 00:44:51,280

I just

:

00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:52,380

imagine the heat, the longer

:

00:44:52,380 --> 00:44:53,810

you've been inundated

:

00:44:53,810 --> 00:44:54,240

with that,

:

00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:55,090

the harder

:

00:44:55,094 --> 00:44:55,344

Tali: the

:

00:44:55,504 --> 00:44:56,184

recovery

:

00:44:57,100 --> 00:44:57,250

SCOTT: would

:

00:44:57,250 --> 00:44:57,460

have

:

00:44:57,460 --> 00:44:57,560

to

:

00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:57,830

be.

:

00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:58,230

So

:

00:44:58,235 --> 00:44:58,705

Tali: if you're a parent,

:

00:44:58,740 --> 00:44:59,020

SCOTT: the detox

:

00:44:59,740 --> 00:45:00,750

process yeah,

:

00:45:00,945 --> 00:45:01,785

Tali: has to be, you

:

00:45:01,790 --> 00:45:02,040

SCOTT: have

:

00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:02,130

to

:

00:45:02,130 --> 00:45:02,290

go

:

00:45:02,290 --> 00:45:02,460

through

:

00:45:02,460 --> 00:45:03,300

withdrawal symptoms.

:

00:45:04,020 --> 00:45:04,410

Well,

:

00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:05,080

does it

:

00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:05,760

take, right?

:

00:45:05,900 --> 00:45:06,310

Right.

:

00:45:06,310 --> 00:45:06,559

Yeah.

:

00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:06,760

So

:

00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:07,000

if you're

:

00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:07,360

a parent.

:

00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:07,470

And

:

00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:08,110

Tali: you

:

00:45:08,110 --> 00:45:08,630

hear that,

:

00:45:09,020 --> 00:45:09,180

you're

:

00:45:09,180 --> 00:45:09,520

like,

:

00:45:10,410 --> 00:45:10,830

SCOTT: okay,

:

00:45:10,890 --> 00:45:12,610

I, kids gonna be with us

:

00:45:12,730 --> 00:45:12,940

Tali: until they're

:

00:45:12,940 --> 00:45:13,580

18,

:

00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:15,320

SCOTT: you know, how

:

00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:15,660

Tali: we

:

00:45:15,670 --> 00:45:16,360

help them

:

00:45:17,230 --> 00:45:17,430

get

:

00:45:17,445 --> 00:45:17,915

SCOTT: healthy

:

00:45:18,395 --> 00:45:19,435

and be able to

:

00:45:19,435 --> 00:45:20,835

function and learn things for

:

00:45:20,850 --> 00:45:21,320

Tali: themselves

:

00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:21,890

and do all that stuff?

:

00:45:22,845 --> 00:45:22,995

SCOTT: And

:

00:45:22,995 --> 00:45:23,495

if we've set

:

00:45:23,495 --> 00:45:23,785

them in

:

00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:24,649

Tali: in a stage that's

:

00:45:24,659 --> 00:45:25,289

chronically,

:

00:45:26,055 --> 00:45:26,375

SCOTT: whatever you

:

00:45:26,375 --> 00:45:26,615

call

:

00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:26,650

Tali: it,

:

00:45:26,660 --> 00:45:27,230

anxious

:

00:45:27,230 --> 00:45:27,530

or

:

00:45:28,315 --> 00:45:28,725

SCOTT: I forget what

:

00:45:28,725 --> 00:45:29,225

the word was

:

00:45:29,260 --> 00:45:29,290

Tali: that

:

00:45:29,290 --> 00:45:29,420

you

:

00:45:29,420 --> 00:45:29,660

used

:

00:45:29,660 --> 00:45:30,060

there, but

:

00:45:30,545 --> 00:45:31,415

ANJAN: or sympathetic

:

00:45:31,885 --> 00:45:32,055

SCOTT: Well,

:

00:45:32,445 --> 00:45:32,735

here's

:

00:45:32,735 --> 00:45:32,825

the

:

00:45:32,825 --> 00:45:33,125

thing

:

00:45:33,125 --> 00:45:33,455

though,

:

00:45:33,595 --> 00:45:33,795

uh,

:

00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:34,010

Tali: we

:

00:45:34,010 --> 00:45:34,510

talked about

:

00:45:34,510 --> 00:45:34,680

this

:

00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:35,400

before.

:

00:45:35,499 --> 00:45:36,080

We can't.

:

00:45:36,135 --> 00:45:38,683

Um, I'm going to go cold turkey because

:

00:45:38,683 --> 00:45:39,002

this

:

00:45:39,002 --> 00:45:39,957

pad is still

:

00:45:39,957 --> 00:45:40,276

not

:

00:45:40,276 --> 00:45:40,594

able

:

00:45:40,595 --> 00:45:42,255

to do a lot of things

the computers can do.

:

00:45:42,255 --> 00:45:42,495

So

:

00:45:42,715 --> 00:45:42,865

for

:

00:45:42,865 --> 00:45:43,255

example,

:

00:45:43,255 --> 00:45:43,565

we have

:

00:45:43,705 --> 00:45:45,215

two kids in college

:

00:45:45,465 --> 00:45:45,734

and

:

00:45:45,734 --> 00:45:45,854

they

:

00:45:45,865 --> 00:45:46,175

SCOTT: are

:

00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:46,960

by

:

00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:47,600

necessity

:

00:45:48,121 --> 00:45:48,300

on

:

00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:48,430

the

:

00:45:48,430 --> 00:45:48,930

screen

:

00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:49,300

hours

:

00:45:49,314 --> 00:45:49,424

Tali: and

:

00:45:49,425 --> 00:45:49,625

hours

:

00:45:49,625 --> 00:45:49,734

and

:

00:45:49,734 --> 00:45:50,064

hours and

:

00:45:50,064 --> 00:45:50,304

hours

:

00:45:50,305 --> 00:45:50,505

every

:

00:45:50,510 --> 00:45:50,980

SCOTT: day

:

00:45:51,310 --> 00:45:51,530

when

:

00:45:51,530 --> 00:45:51,650

they

:

00:45:51,650 --> 00:45:51,980

go to

:

00:45:51,980 --> 00:45:52,090

the

:

00:45:52,090 --> 00:45:52,610

library, it's

:

00:45:52,664 --> 00:45:53,164

Tali: fluorescent

:

00:45:53,164 --> 00:45:53,394

light.

:

00:45:53,395 --> 00:45:54,465

When they go to the cafeteria, it's

:

00:45:54,930 --> 00:45:55,180

SCOTT: light.

:

00:45:55,180 --> 00:45:55,290

When

:

00:45:55,375 --> 00:45:55,875

Tali: go to the student

:

00:45:55,885 --> 00:45:56,945

unit, fluorescent light.

:

00:45:57,928 --> 00:45:58,280

SCOTT: How

:

00:45:58,580 --> 00:45:58,800

like

:

00:45:58,800 --> 00:45:59,700

what's available

:

00:45:59,720 --> 00:45:59,890

on

:

00:45:59,890 --> 00:46:00,560

your pad

:

00:46:00,615 --> 00:46:02,715

Tali: that can substitute what they're

:

00:46:02,715 --> 00:46:03,045

doing

:

00:46:03,064 --> 00:46:03,234

on

:

00:46:03,234 --> 00:46:03,654

their

:

00:46:04,070 --> 00:46:04,490

SCOTT: laptop?

:

00:46:05,815 --> 00:46:07,405

ANJAN: I mean, that's what's

kind of cool about it.

:

00:46:07,405 --> 00:46:10,045

To kind of answer your question

too, where you brought up like,

:

00:46:10,225 --> 00:46:11,635

Hey, I have to use certain apps.

:

00:46:11,635 --> 00:46:13,045

Will I be able to do it on this?

:

00:46:13,375 --> 00:46:14,275

We have two modes.

:

00:46:14,275 --> 00:46:16,135

We kind of have a lockdown focus mode.

:

00:46:17,350 --> 00:46:22,830

mainly for kids and it kind of curates in

that And then we kind of have an open mode

:

00:46:24,890 --> 00:46:29,360

be more geared for adults and there you

get access to actually almost all of the

:

00:46:31,431 --> 00:46:34,659

Because we have access to android apps

and web apps So if you're in school

:

00:46:34,660 --> 00:46:37,250

and you're using canvas We have that if

you're using microsoft word if you're

:

00:46:37,250 --> 00:46:41,110

using excel if you're using outlook

if you're using, you know, google docs

:

00:46:41,820 --> 00:46:45,735

all of those things run on our thing

So in that sense, we're kind of a A

:

00:46:45,735 --> 00:46:47,540

one to one replacement for an iPad.

:

00:46:48,655 --> 00:46:50,925

a keyboard with ours, we can

be a reasonable replacement

:

00:46:50,925 --> 00:46:52,535

for a laptop as well.

:

00:46:52,586 --> 00:46:53,810

Tali: But everything you have

:

00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:55,180

is black and white.

:

00:46:55,220 --> 00:46:55,960

Is that correct?

:

00:46:56,465 --> 00:46:59,185

ANJAN: that's the big To get

the kind of health benefits

:

00:47:02,454 --> 00:47:04,504

that turns out for most people to be okay.

:

00:47:04,554 --> 00:47:04,650

There

:

00:47:04,959 --> 00:47:05,449

Tali: Yeah.

:

00:47:05,959 --> 00:47:06,350

Yeah, because

:

00:47:06,749 --> 00:47:06,959

one

:

00:47:06,959 --> 00:47:07,079

of

:

00:47:07,079 --> 00:47:07,189

our

:

00:47:07,190 --> 00:47:07,460

kids

:

00:47:07,510 --> 00:47:08,720

is a design major

:

00:47:08,749 --> 00:47:10,060

and she needs to be able to see the

:

00:47:10,090 --> 00:47:10,620

colors.

:

00:47:10,629 --> 00:47:11,199

So,

:

00:47:11,539 --> 00:47:12,169

necessarily

:

00:47:12,170 --> 00:47:14,450

she's on her Kindle because

she's using Procreate.

:

00:47:15,045 --> 00:47:15,235

SCOTT: But

:

00:47:15,235 --> 00:47:15,295

I

:

00:47:15,295 --> 00:47:15,515

can

:

00:47:15,515 --> 00:47:16,175

see how

:

00:47:16,190 --> 00:47:16,350

Tali: when

:

00:47:16,350 --> 00:47:16,730

they're writing

:

00:47:16,730 --> 00:47:17,360

papers, they

:

00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:18,650

can substitute

:

00:47:19,210 --> 00:47:19,930

your,

:

00:47:20,030 --> 00:47:20,640

um,

:

00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:21,340

tablet.

:

00:47:21,340 --> 00:47:21,380

Okay.

:

00:47:21,695 --> 00:47:22,455

For the

:

00:47:22,495 --> 00:47:22,905

laptop

:

00:47:22,915 --> 00:47:23,085

they're

:

00:47:23,085 --> 00:47:23,625

SCOTT: using.

:

00:47:23,625 --> 00:47:23,905

Can

:

00:47:23,905 --> 00:47:24,185

I,

:

00:47:24,185 --> 00:47:25,185

can I go onto your

:

00:47:25,195 --> 00:47:25,605

tablet

:

00:47:25,655 --> 00:47:26,465

and watch a

:

00:47:26,475 --> 00:47:26,785

YouTube

:

00:47:26,795 --> 00:47:27,105

Tali: video,

:

00:47:27,105 --> 00:47:27,995

but it's in black and white?

:

00:47:29,445 --> 00:47:29,695

Yeah.

:

00:47:29,965 --> 00:47:30,255

Okay.

:

00:47:30,305 --> 00:47:30,575

So

:

00:47:30,815 --> 00:47:30,865

ANJAN: people

:

00:47:31,170 --> 00:47:31,430

SCOTT: that's

:

00:47:31,924 --> 00:47:33,645

ANJAN: cats and lectures and Khan Academy.

:

00:47:34,012 --> 00:47:34,636

Tali: Wow.

:

00:47:34,636 --> 00:47:36,507

That's so helpful.

:

00:47:36,507 --> 00:47:37,755

That's amazing.

:

00:47:37,755 --> 00:47:40,249

Did you say you're

:

00:47:40,249 --> 00:47:41,497

sold out?

:

00:47:41,575 --> 00:47:44,595

ANJAN: Uh, we are, but we're

trying to get back on sale.

:

00:47:44,615 --> 00:47:45,250

So what we're doing

:

00:47:48,445 --> 00:47:49,464

100 deposit down.

:

00:47:49,464 --> 00:47:50,130

You'll be first in

:

00:47:51,495 --> 00:47:51,755

Tali: When,

:

00:47:51,765 --> 00:47:52,595

when are you expecting

:

00:47:52,635 --> 00:47:53,465

your next shipment?

:

00:47:55,185 --> 00:47:55,695

ANJAN: February.

:

00:47:56,005 --> 00:47:56,585

Tali: February.

:

00:47:56,644 --> 00:47:56,974

Okay.

:

00:47:57,054 --> 00:47:57,564

Gotcha.

:

00:47:57,565 --> 00:47:58,625

Okay.

:

00:48:00,135 --> 00:48:00,355

SCOTT: I'm

:

00:48:00,395 --> 00:48:00,625

on the

:

00:48:00,630 --> 00:48:01,280

Tali: computer

:

00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:02,210

12

:

00:48:02,285 --> 00:48:02,605

SCOTT: hours

:

00:48:02,605 --> 00:48:03,285

a day

:

00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:03,810

Tali: because

:

00:48:03,900 --> 00:48:04,270

all of

:

00:48:04,270 --> 00:48:04,790

my work

:

00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:05,410

is online.

:

00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:06,430

I'm on zoom calls.

:

00:48:06,460 --> 00:48:07,270

I am working

:

00:48:07,761 --> 00:48:08,320

SCOTT: on graphics.

:

00:48:08,430 --> 00:48:09,680

Tali: I'm working on social media

:

00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:09,910

posts.

:

00:48:09,910 --> 00:48:10,209

I

:

00:48:10,210 --> 00:48:10,370

mean,

:

00:48:10,890 --> 00:48:10,970

I

:

00:48:10,970 --> 00:48:11,229

mean, I

:

00:48:11,230 --> 00:48:11,430

can

:

00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:11,790

stand

:

00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:12,270

up

:

00:48:12,529 --> 00:48:12,759

and

:

00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:13,950

feel my body.

:

00:48:15,449 --> 00:48:15,999

Complaining

:

00:48:15,999 --> 00:48:16,129

to

:

00:48:16,130 --> 00:48:17,120

me what

:

00:48:17,205 --> 00:48:17,455

SCOTT: my

:

00:48:17,455 --> 00:48:17,915

eyes

:

00:48:17,915 --> 00:48:18,095

like

:

00:48:18,095 --> 00:48:18,445

I forget

:

00:48:18,445 --> 00:48:18,525

to

:

00:48:18,525 --> 00:48:18,855

blink.

:

00:48:18,875 --> 00:48:19,015

You

:

00:48:19,019 --> 00:48:19,109

Tali: were

:

00:48:19,385 --> 00:48:19,585

SCOTT: about

:

00:48:19,585 --> 00:48:19,875

shallow

:

00:48:19,875 --> 00:48:20,215

breath.

:

00:48:20,539 --> 00:48:20,909

Tali: I feel

:

00:48:20,909 --> 00:48:20,989

it

:

00:48:20,989 --> 00:48:21,239

more in

:

00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:21,379

my

:

00:48:21,379 --> 00:48:21,739

eyes

:

00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:21,920

because

:

00:48:21,930 --> 00:48:23,440

I don't I don't I blink less.

:

00:48:24,315 --> 00:48:24,985

ANJAN: So blink rates.

:

00:48:26,375 --> 00:48:27,585

It's like a deer in headlights.

:

00:48:27,585 --> 00:48:27,795

That's

:

00:48:27,805 --> 00:48:29,005

literally actually an amazing

:

00:48:30,125 --> 00:48:31,315

Tali: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

:

00:48:32,535 --> 00:48:32,905

ANJAN: Um,

:

00:48:33,105 --> 00:48:38,185

and what what will blow my mind is

this is the rest of our lives, if Mark

:

00:48:38,185 --> 00:48:41,210

Zuckerberg's right and so on, we're going

to have these things stuck on our faces,

:

00:48:42,194 --> 00:48:43,235

more screens, more

:

00:48:43,305 --> 00:48:43,420

blue

:

00:48:43,495 --> 00:48:43,615

SCOTT: your

:

00:48:43,635 --> 00:48:44,235

eyeballs.

:

00:48:44,285 --> 00:48:44,815

Oh, yeah.

:

00:48:45,035 --> 00:48:45,615

Yeah, that's

:

00:48:45,795 --> 00:48:46,145

Tali: Elon

:

00:48:46,145 --> 00:48:46,174

Musk

:

00:48:46,175 --> 00:48:46,344

right?

:

00:48:46,344 --> 00:48:46,895

putting your brain

:

00:48:47,746 --> 00:48:49,494

ANJAN: we're trying to go the

opposite where it's like the

:

00:48:49,495 --> 00:48:50,995

least computer possible, right?

:

00:48:50,995 --> 00:48:51,125

We're

:

00:48:51,125 --> 00:48:52,645

not vilifying technology,

:

00:48:52,645 --> 00:48:54,695

but we're saying, Hey, what

matters in life is real

:

00:48:54,695 --> 00:48:54,890

life

:

00:48:54,895 --> 00:48:55,205

Tali: yes

:

00:48:55,215 --> 00:48:55,415

SCOTT: Look.

:

00:48:56,305 --> 00:48:56,725

Yeah, it's

:

00:48:56,725 --> 00:48:57,215

the low

:

00:48:57,425 --> 00:48:57,725

Tali: low

:

00:48:57,725 --> 00:48:58,465

time preference

:

00:48:58,505 --> 00:48:59,675

technology, right?

:

00:48:59,695 --> 00:48:59,885

You're

:

00:48:59,935 --> 00:49:00,265

concerned

:

00:49:00,265 --> 00:49:00,504

about your

:

00:49:00,504 --> 00:49:00,724

health.

:

00:49:00,735 --> 00:49:00,955

what?

:

00:49:01,425 --> 00:49:02,990

ANJAN: that's what we said on Cyphidine's

:

00:49:03,545 --> 00:49:03,695

SCOTT: Oh,

:

00:49:03,695 --> 00:49:03,865

did

:

00:49:03,865 --> 00:49:03,955

you

:

00:49:03,955 --> 00:49:04,355

really?

:

00:49:04,745 --> 00:49:05,105

Okay,

:

00:49:05,105 --> 00:49:05,295

now

:

00:49:05,295 --> 00:49:05,915

I'm going to really,

:

00:49:05,965 --> 00:49:06,455

now I really

:

00:49:06,545 --> 00:49:06,615

Tali: to

:

00:49:06,625 --> 00:49:06,735

go

:

00:49:06,735 --> 00:49:06,955

listen

:

00:49:06,975 --> 00:49:07,095

SCOTT: to

:

00:49:07,095 --> 00:49:07,205

it.

:

00:49:07,275 --> 00:49:07,695

Um,

:

00:49:08,215 --> 00:49:08,725

so

:

00:49:09,125 --> 00:49:09,465

Tali: what

:

00:49:09,465 --> 00:49:09,605

do

:

00:49:09,605 --> 00:49:10,315

SCOTT: people,

:

00:49:10,975 --> 00:49:11,205

what

:

00:49:11,205 --> 00:49:11,385

are we

:

00:49:11,385 --> 00:49:11,675

not

:

00:49:11,685 --> 00:49:12,015

asking

:

00:49:12,015 --> 00:49:12,335

you?

:

00:49:12,505 --> 00:49:13,045

Like, cause

:

00:49:13,085 --> 00:49:13,305

this

:

00:49:13,305 --> 00:49:14,185

is new to us.

:

00:49:14,375 --> 00:49:14,715

Everything,

:

00:49:14,755 --> 00:49:15,054

Tali: you've

:

00:49:15,054 --> 00:49:16,224

been doing this for six

:

00:49:16,655 --> 00:49:17,365

years.

:

00:49:19,065 --> 00:49:19,625

SCOTT: I

:

00:49:19,655 --> 00:49:20,185

assume there's

:

00:49:20,185 --> 00:49:20,595

something

:

00:49:20,595 --> 00:49:21,315

we're missing

:

00:49:21,445 --> 00:49:21,645

just

:

00:49:21,645 --> 00:49:22,205

because we just

:

00:49:22,215 --> 00:49:22,415

Tali: don't

:

00:49:22,415 --> 00:49:22,995

even know.

:

00:49:23,015 --> 00:49:23,385

So

:

00:49:24,575 --> 00:49:24,915

I kind

:

00:49:24,915 --> 00:49:24,985

of

:

00:49:24,995 --> 00:49:25,115

SCOTT: want

:

00:49:25,115 --> 00:49:25,185

to

:

00:49:25,185 --> 00:49:25,485

just

:

00:49:26,065 --> 00:49:26,445

flip

:

00:49:26,445 --> 00:49:26,575

the

:

00:49:26,575 --> 00:49:26,945

script

:

00:49:26,945 --> 00:49:26,975

a

:

00:49:26,975 --> 00:49:27,235

little

:

00:49:27,235 --> 00:49:27,585

bit.

:

00:49:28,285 --> 00:49:28,515

Tell

:

00:49:28,515 --> 00:49:28,605

us

:

00:49:28,615 --> 00:49:29,015

something

:

00:49:29,015 --> 00:49:29,225

that

:

00:49:29,245 --> 00:49:29,365

you

:

00:49:29,365 --> 00:49:30,365

think That

:

00:49:30,495 --> 00:49:31,205

we probably

:

00:49:31,205 --> 00:49:32,655

don't know about or other people

:

00:49:32,815 --> 00:49:33,905

Tali: know about like just

:

00:49:34,765 --> 00:49:35,225

SCOTT: Um,

:

00:49:35,955 --> 00:49:36,025

I

:

00:49:36,025 --> 00:49:36,365

just feel like

:

00:49:36,485 --> 00:49:36,805

Tali: is such

:

00:49:36,805 --> 00:49:36,855

a

:

00:49:36,865 --> 00:49:37,125

SCOTT: new

:

00:49:37,125 --> 00:49:37,725

thing

:

00:49:38,085 --> 00:49:38,555

I don't feel

:

00:49:38,555 --> 00:49:39,155

prepared

:

00:49:39,225 --> 00:49:39,345

to

:

00:49:39,355 --> 00:49:40,415

ask you deep

:

00:49:40,675 --> 00:49:41,175

Tali: questions

:

00:49:41,175 --> 00:49:41,315

SCOTT: to

:

00:49:41,315 --> 00:49:41,705

really

:

00:49:42,225 --> 00:49:42,435

get

:

00:49:42,435 --> 00:49:42,545

your

:

00:49:42,955 --> 00:49:43,345

Tali: out there.

:

00:49:43,345 --> 00:49:43,685

So

:

00:49:44,545 --> 00:49:44,735

SCOTT: What

:

00:49:44,735 --> 00:49:44,775

are

:

00:49:44,775 --> 00:49:45,205

we missing?

:

00:49:45,215 --> 00:49:45,314

Tali: What

:

00:49:45,314 --> 00:49:45,344

are

:

00:49:45,345 --> 00:49:45,625

we not

:

00:49:45,625 --> 00:49:46,205

asking you?

:

00:49:47,525 --> 00:49:47,924

on this

:

00:49:51,830 --> 00:49:52,810

ANJAN: two things come to mind.

:

00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:58,559

One is this vision from science fiction

primer And the second thing is the

:

00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:02,290

possibility architecting computing

:

00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,790

the primer or primer is this

book Neal Stevenson called the

:

00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,930

diamond quite some time ago.

:

00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:21,260

in this, it's like a weird futuristic

nanotechnology world that's Victorian.

:

00:50:21,260 --> 00:50:23,450

It's old meets new,

:

00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:32,170

protagonist girl named

Nell, and some really hard

:

00:50:37,610 --> 00:50:41,440

so she doesn't really have much going

this world, but she gets this magical

:

00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,140

book called the Primer or Primer,

:

00:50:47,060 --> 00:50:52,110

And what's cool about it is what it

does is it writes chapters and stories

:

00:50:53,220 --> 00:50:59,395

are appropriate for what's happening

for her in Where she's getting bullied

:

00:50:59,395 --> 00:51:04,475

in school and it writes a chapter

about how to like and creates pictures

:

00:51:05,283 --> 00:51:09,065

she can relate to will include

her stuffed animals as characters.

:

00:51:09,074 --> 00:51:11,255

So it has like context on her.

:

00:51:12,415 --> 00:51:14,125

the previous conversations they've had.

:

00:51:14,504 --> 00:51:16,475

And so it's kind of

this like teacher built

:

00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,440

And the basic idea is she is able to

bootstrap herself out of like some really

:

00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:30,509

tough circumstances because she's got this

amazing, ever personalized And so this has

:

00:51:30,510 --> 00:51:34,020

been kind of one of the hidden visions in

personal computing, which is, you know,

:

00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:39,010

Stevenson calls it subversion, similar

to like the Alan Kay, the point empower

:

00:51:39,850 --> 00:51:43,450

You know, Steven said that said the point

of a real good education is subversion.

:

00:51:44,490 --> 00:51:46,190

A kid willing to challenge an adult.

:

00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,050

A kid willing to challenge the status quo.

:

00:51:48,110 --> 00:51:51,120

A kid willing to follow their own

instinct, their own intuition.

:

00:51:52,430 --> 00:51:54,330

And that actually is how you learn agency.

:

00:51:54,350 --> 00:51:55,660

And that's how you learn sovereignty.

:

00:51:57,091 --> 00:51:57,630

own confidence

:

00:52:00,889 --> 00:52:05,565

And his point is, if you could kid instead

of going to adults every time they're

:

00:52:05,565 --> 00:52:10,595

blocked, going to an authority figure,

always stuck on somebody else, but instead

:

00:52:10,595 --> 00:52:14,355

felt they could figure it out themselves

and there was something there that that

:

00:52:14,355 --> 00:52:20,225

could unstuck them at times, they could

really develop And so that I found

:

00:52:20,235 --> 00:52:22,120

to be like a really inspiring vision.

:

00:52:23,095 --> 00:52:26,495

and that's one of the ways I like

think about is how can you create

:

00:52:26,495 --> 00:52:29,275

like the next evolution of the book?

:

00:52:29,285 --> 00:52:30,774

How do you create this magic book?

:

00:52:31,845 --> 00:52:35,485

And now, you know, with the advances

in language models, it is possible to

:

00:52:35,495 --> 00:52:40,774

have something you can you know, if you

really nail the privacy and security

:

00:52:40,775 --> 00:52:43,954

and it's on device, it's not on the

cloud and so on, maybe it's okay to

:

00:52:43,955 --> 00:52:47,280

trust it with it having context on

you, it knowing your interests, the

:

00:52:49,739 --> 00:52:52,235

suddenly it could personalized

and maybe you're dumb.

:

00:52:52,245 --> 00:52:54,865

Maybe it's like you feel dumb

if something's explained in a

:

00:52:54,865 --> 00:52:56,335

way that's like out of context.

:

00:52:56,695 --> 00:52:59,965

But it's explained in terms of

skateboarding and you love skateboarding.

:

00:52:59,965 --> 00:53:04,565

Suddenly it makes a lot of And that's

And it knows what you've like learned

:

00:53:04,565 --> 00:53:06,000

in the past and what you don't.

:

00:53:06,529 --> 00:53:11,485

And so to me, like the possibility for

self learning, even in the context of

:

00:53:11,485 --> 00:53:17,015

homeschooling or not, potentially it

can be like dramatically And especially

:

00:53:17,015 --> 00:53:18,825

if we figure out how to value align.

:

00:53:19,305 --> 00:53:23,265

This little sidekick with what values

you have as a family and parents, right?

:

00:53:24,205 --> 00:53:26,730

because it's kind of,

in a way, co parenting

:

00:53:31,115 --> 00:53:31,650

the syllabus.

:

00:53:32,524 --> 00:53:38,575

That, to me, potentially one of the,

one of the, like, core levers to

:

00:53:42,325 --> 00:53:42,755

learning

:

00:53:46,218 --> 00:53:48,975

reliance of so that's my kind of like

:

00:53:51,270 --> 00:53:55,925

work with the best educators and

learning designers parents and different

:

00:53:55,925 --> 00:53:57,110

value sets and figure out how to

:

00:54:01,096 --> 00:54:01,334

Tali: Beautiful

:

00:54:01,395 --> 00:54:01,755

vision.

:

00:54:02,205 --> 00:54:03,345

Yeah, I love that vision.

:

00:54:03,355 --> 00:54:04,185

That's amazing

:

00:54:05,685 --> 00:54:05,755

I

:

00:54:05,755 --> 00:54:06,065

SCOTT: think that

:

00:54:06,075 --> 00:54:07,515

I, I have just imagined

:

00:54:07,525 --> 00:54:08,895

Tali: that homeschoolers would resonate

:

00:54:08,958 --> 00:54:09,025

SCOTT: with

:

00:54:09,025 --> 00:54:09,235

so

:

00:54:09,235 --> 00:54:09,425

many

:

00:54:10,645 --> 00:54:10,975

uh,

:

00:54:11,265 --> 00:54:11,595

Tali: yeah,

:

00:54:11,815 --> 00:54:12,285

um.

:

00:54:13,655 --> 00:54:13,975

Alright, what

:

00:54:13,975 --> 00:54:14,075

do you

:

00:54:14,075 --> 00:54:14,175

want

:

00:54:14,175 --> 00:54:14,445

to?

:

00:54:14,690 --> 00:54:14,910

SCOTT: Well,

:

00:54:14,940 --> 00:54:15,080

I

:

00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:15,370

think,

:

00:54:15,370 --> 00:54:15,450

I

:

00:54:15,455 --> 00:54:15,655

Tali: think

:

00:54:15,655 --> 00:54:15,715

we

:

00:54:15,715 --> 00:54:15,785

should

:

00:54:15,814 --> 00:54:16,335

end on that

:

00:54:16,335 --> 00:54:16,525

note

:

00:54:16,535 --> 00:54:16,705

because

:

00:54:16,730 --> 00:54:16,950

SCOTT: it was

:

00:54:16,950 --> 00:54:17,330

such a,

:

00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:17,870

it's such

:

00:54:17,870 --> 00:54:17,930

a

:

00:54:17,930 --> 00:54:19,010

beautiful imagery.

:

00:54:19,070 --> 00:54:19,490

I just

:

00:54:19,550 --> 00:54:20,170

absolutely love

:

00:54:20,170 --> 00:54:20,480

that.

:

00:54:20,530 --> 00:54:21,060

And

:

00:54:21,490 --> 00:54:21,810

I,

:

00:54:21,885 --> 00:54:22,024

Tali: I

:

00:54:22,030 --> 00:54:22,590

SCOTT: would love

:

00:54:22,620 --> 00:54:22,870

if

:

00:54:22,870 --> 00:54:22,970

I

:

00:54:22,970 --> 00:54:23,580

were to go

:

00:54:23,750 --> 00:54:24,030

back

:

00:54:24,030 --> 00:54:24,690

in time

:

00:54:25,630 --> 00:54:26,080

again.

:

00:54:27,070 --> 00:54:27,510

would love

:

00:54:27,510 --> 00:54:28,460

to let my kids

:

00:54:28,470 --> 00:54:28,680

have

:

00:54:28,690 --> 00:54:29,040

access

:

00:54:29,090 --> 00:54:30,290

Tali: to something like that

:

00:54:30,810 --> 00:54:30,860

because

:

00:54:30,870 --> 00:54:31,140

I

:

00:54:31,150 --> 00:54:31,400

do

:

00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,100

feel like they would be amplified

:

00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:33,530

and

:

00:54:33,530 --> 00:54:34,629

I think one of the key,

:

00:54:35,389 --> 00:54:35,689

uh,

:

00:54:35,700 --> 00:54:35,719

SCOTT: key

:

00:54:36,460 --> 00:54:37,250

Tali: variant would

:

00:54:37,259 --> 00:54:37,729

be

:

00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:38,360

that

:

00:54:38,370 --> 00:54:38,580

the

:

00:54:38,580 --> 00:54:39,250

computer doesn't

:

00:54:39,250 --> 00:54:39,390

SCOTT: get

:

00:54:39,390 --> 00:54:39,640

upset,

:

00:54:40,180 --> 00:54:40,520

you know,

:

00:54:40,610 --> 00:54:40,770

because

:

00:54:40,780 --> 00:54:40,910

Tali: the

:

00:54:40,910 --> 00:54:41,410

parent can

:

00:54:41,420 --> 00:54:41,610

have

:

00:54:41,610 --> 00:54:41,670

SCOTT: a

:

00:54:41,670 --> 00:54:43,000

bad and

:

00:54:43,010 --> 00:54:43,170

Tali: you

:

00:54:43,170 --> 00:54:43,459

can get

:

00:54:43,459 --> 00:54:43,789

upset

:

00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:43,890

SCOTT: at

:

00:54:43,980 --> 00:54:44,430

Tali: kid

:

00:54:44,449 --> 00:54:44,639

and

:

00:54:44,639 --> 00:54:44,749

they

:

00:54:44,750 --> 00:54:44,860

can

:

00:54:44,869 --> 00:54:45,559

internalize

:

00:54:45,679 --> 00:54:45,759

it,

:

00:54:45,809 --> 00:54:46,199

but

:

00:54:46,479 --> 00:54:46,589

it

:

00:54:46,599 --> 00:54:46,769

had

:

00:54:46,769 --> 00:54:47,410

nothing to do with

:

00:54:47,410 --> 00:54:47,620

them.

:

00:54:47,670 --> 00:54:48,520

It could be just

:

00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:49,170

that

:

00:54:49,170 --> 00:54:49,290

you

:

00:54:49,290 --> 00:54:50,070

got a parking ticket.

:

00:54:50,100 --> 00:54:51,940

It could be that, you know, you,

:

00:54:51,950 --> 00:54:52,139

you

:

00:54:52,139 --> 00:54:52,449

burned

:

00:54:52,460 --> 00:54:52,690

some

:

00:54:52,690 --> 00:54:53,070

food on the

:

00:54:53,127 --> 00:54:53,570

SCOTT: stove,

:

00:54:53,590 --> 00:54:53,850

but

:

00:54:54,460 --> 00:54:54,720

You know,

:

00:54:54,730 --> 00:54:54,960

you're

:

00:54:56,381 --> 00:54:56,500

and

:

00:54:56,555 --> 00:54:57,685

Tali: it, you can't

:

00:54:57,685 --> 00:54:57,945

help

:

00:54:58,045 --> 00:54:58,065

it.

:

00:54:58,085 --> 00:54:58,225

it,

:

00:54:58,225 --> 00:54:58,445

goes

:

00:54:58,475 --> 00:54:59,345

into your

:

00:54:59,595 --> 00:55:00,125

teaching.

:

00:55:00,145 --> 00:55:00,285

SCOTT: You

:

00:55:00,285 --> 00:55:00,555

said you

:

00:55:00,555 --> 00:55:02,325

wanted to leave on the

positive image, you just said,

:

00:55:02,325 --> 00:55:02,455

now

:

00:55:02,455 --> 00:55:02,585

you

:

00:55:02,585 --> 00:55:03,395

throw that out there?

:

00:55:03,395 --> 00:55:03,774

No, but that's,

:

00:55:03,775 --> 00:55:04,935

that's, but it's because

:

00:55:05,185 --> 00:55:05,285

Tali: of

:

00:55:05,355 --> 00:55:05,805

that

:

00:55:05,885 --> 00:55:06,185

SCOTT: I

:

00:55:06,465 --> 00:55:06,905

ANJAN: patient.

:

00:55:07,035 --> 00:55:07,375

Yeah,

:

00:55:07,460 --> 00:55:07,595

SCOTT: the

:

00:55:07,615 --> 00:55:08,785

infinitely patient,

:

00:55:09,455 --> 00:55:10,874

Tali: no judgment,

:

00:55:11,165 --> 00:55:12,665

because if the kid

:

00:55:12,665 --> 00:55:13,514

feels safe

:

00:55:13,864 --> 00:55:14,004

to

:

00:55:14,054 --> 00:55:14,414

ask

:

00:55:14,484 --> 00:55:14,724

any

:

00:55:14,735 --> 00:55:15,085

SCOTT: question

:

00:55:15,085 --> 00:55:15,235

at

:

00:55:15,235 --> 00:55:15,635

all,

:

00:55:16,275 --> 00:55:16,485

that

:

00:55:16,525 --> 00:55:17,075

opens up

:

00:55:17,075 --> 00:55:17,935

a whole world

:

00:55:17,955 --> 00:55:18,125

Tali: of

:

00:55:18,125 --> 00:55:18,505

learning

:

00:55:18,525 --> 00:55:18,655

that

:

00:55:18,685 --> 00:55:19,335

SCOTT: otherwise,

:

00:55:19,575 --> 00:55:20,165

Tali: It's close

:

00:55:20,175 --> 00:55:20,515

SCOTT: to them.

:

00:55:20,545 --> 00:55:20,635

If

:

00:55:20,645 --> 00:55:20,915

they're

:

00:55:20,915 --> 00:55:21,345

scared

:

00:55:21,345 --> 00:55:21,555

of

:

00:55:21,705 --> 00:55:21,965

getting

:

00:55:21,965 --> 00:55:22,015

a

:

00:55:22,015 --> 00:55:22,785

bad grade,

:

00:55:22,805 --> 00:55:22,965

if

:

00:55:22,965 --> 00:55:23,115

they're

:

00:55:23,115 --> 00:55:23,435

scared of

:

00:55:23,475 --> 00:55:23,785

being

:

00:55:23,985 --> 00:55:24,665

laughed at,

:

00:55:24,675 --> 00:55:24,875

Tali: if

:

00:55:24,875 --> 00:55:25,075

they're

:

00:55:25,075 --> 00:55:25,475

scared

:

00:55:25,505 --> 00:55:25,635

SCOTT: of

:

00:55:25,635 --> 00:55:25,725

the

:

00:55:26,405 --> 00:55:26,615

why

:

00:55:26,615 --> 00:55:26,665

didn't

:

00:55:26,675 --> 00:55:26,865

you

:

00:55:26,865 --> 00:55:27,065

learn

:

00:55:27,075 --> 00:55:27,355

that

:

00:55:27,565 --> 00:55:28,155

yesterday?

:

00:55:28,155 --> 00:55:29,075

You know, that kind of thing.

:

00:55:29,075 --> 00:55:29,584

That's different though.

:

00:55:29,585 --> 00:55:29,785

You

:

00:55:29,785 --> 00:55:30,585

need feedback.

:

00:55:30,685 --> 00:55:30,885

You

:

00:55:30,985 --> 00:55:31,275

do need

:

00:55:31,425 --> 00:55:31,725

feedback.

:

00:55:31,725 --> 00:55:31,754

When

:

00:55:31,755 --> 00:55:31,955

something's

:

00:55:31,955 --> 00:55:32,595

not right.

:

00:55:32,775 --> 00:55:33,525

Correct.

:

00:55:33,935 --> 00:55:33,965

But

:

00:55:33,965 --> 00:55:34,475

the robot,

:

00:55:34,485 --> 00:55:34,685

not

:

00:55:34,754 --> 00:55:35,094

Tali: robot,

:

00:55:35,115 --> 00:55:35,245

SCOTT: the

:

00:55:35,245 --> 00:55:36,945

computer you

:

00:55:37,175 --> 00:55:37,625

feedback.

:

00:55:37,965 --> 00:55:38,305

Well,

:

00:55:38,725 --> 00:55:38,845

I

:

00:55:38,845 --> 00:55:39,045

just

:

00:55:39,145 --> 00:55:39,235

think

:

00:55:39,345 --> 00:55:40,675

Tali: that's a really important variant.

:

00:55:40,965 --> 00:55:41,285

ANJAN: totally.

:

00:55:41,385 --> 00:55:45,845

It's like, it can give you feedback, but

it can also be infinitely And it can,

:

00:55:46,835 --> 00:55:47,195

Tali: Yeah.

:

00:55:47,725 --> 00:55:48,175

ANJAN: never get

:

00:55:49,835 --> 00:55:50,995

Tali: Yeah, exactly.

:

00:55:51,155 --> 00:55:52,180

ANJAN: I have the deepest of empathy

:

00:55:54,155 --> 00:55:54,495

Tali: So,

:

00:55:54,945 --> 00:55:57,975

SCOTT: um, I want to make

sure too, let's do it verbally

:

00:55:58,115 --> 00:55:58,445

Tali: if you could

:

00:55:58,445 --> 00:55:58,685

SCOTT: also

:

00:55:58,685 --> 00:55:59,245

send,

:

00:55:59,865 --> 00:56:00,015

the

:

00:56:00,015 --> 00:56:00,755

information.

:

00:56:00,985 --> 00:56:01,165

Can

:

00:56:01,165 --> 00:56:02,185

you tell people

:

00:56:02,185 --> 00:56:02,745

where they,

:

00:56:02,745 --> 00:56:03,721

your,

:

00:56:03,721 --> 00:56:04,698

website,

:

00:56:04,698 --> 00:56:05,674

your

:

00:56:05,675 --> 00:56:06,085

preferred

:

00:56:06,475 --> 00:56:07,295

Tali: handles,

:

00:56:07,785 --> 00:56:08,215

SCOTT: give us,

:

00:56:08,415 --> 00:56:10,485

give us all that and then

afterwards send it to us as

:

00:56:10,485 --> 00:56:11,115

well so we can put

:

00:56:11,115 --> 00:56:11,215

it in

:

00:56:11,215 --> 00:56:12,925

our show notes and make

sure everybody can find

:

00:56:12,925 --> 00:56:14,025

you and find,

:

00:56:14,504 --> 00:56:15,144

Tali: find Daylight.

:

00:56:16,790 --> 00:56:17,060

ANJAN: Yeah,

:

00:56:17,060 --> 00:56:19,150

if you're interested in

what we're building and

:

00:56:21,682 --> 00:56:23,030

to daylight computer comm and

:

00:56:31,851 --> 00:56:34,790

our socials are at

daylight co for Twitter and

:

00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:42,135

I always love when people write to

me with they want, or if it can be

:

00:56:42,135 --> 00:56:46,250

built in this way, or they want to

collaborate, or content or sold us for

:

00:56:49,012 --> 00:56:50,255

I'm Anjan, A N

:

00:56:56,696 --> 00:56:57,185

SCOTT: Well thank you

:

00:56:57,185 --> 00:56:58,245

for everything you're doing.

:

00:56:58,865 --> 00:57:00,005

can have a huge,

:

00:57:00,005 --> 00:57:00,305

huge

:

00:57:00,325 --> 00:57:02,715

positive and uh, six

:

00:57:02,894 --> 00:57:03,504

Tali: six years,

:

00:57:03,504 --> 00:57:04,374

talk about proof of work.

:

00:57:04,490 --> 00:57:06,096

Yeah,

:

00:57:06,134 --> 00:57:07,615

ANJAN: I spent all my

life savings on it too.

:

00:57:07,615 --> 00:57:11,580

I bootstrapped it for the first

couple of years because or investors,

:

00:57:13,172 --> 00:57:13,690

SCOTT: yeah,

:

00:57:14,110 --> 00:57:14,450

well,

:

00:57:14,540 --> 00:57:15,920

that's proof

:

00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:16,400

of work

:

00:57:16,410 --> 00:57:16,780

and it's going

:

00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:16,850

Tali: to

:

00:57:16,850 --> 00:57:17,260

have

:

00:57:17,330 --> 00:57:18,269

huge impact.

:

00:57:18,550 --> 00:57:19,080

SCOTT: Um,

:

00:57:19,540 --> 00:57:20,110

so, uh,

:

00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:20,360

thank

:

00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:20,480

you

:

00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:20,680

for,

:

00:57:21,679 --> 00:57:21,899

Tali: thank

:

00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:22,010

SCOTT: you

:

00:57:22,020 --> 00:57:22,220

for

:

00:57:22,260 --> 00:57:22,820

pursuing that

:

00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:23,549

Tali: passion

:

00:57:23,549 --> 00:57:24,590

and helping people out,

:

00:57:25,940 --> 00:57:26,450

SCOTT: um,

:

00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:27,090

with that.

:

00:57:27,100 --> 00:57:27,390

Thank

:

00:57:27,390 --> 00:57:27,520

you

:

00:57:27,550 --> 00:57:27,790

for

:

00:57:27,790 --> 00:57:28,310

sharing

:

00:57:28,630 --> 00:57:29,620

Tali: all of your

:

00:57:29,900 --> 00:57:30,670

ideas

:

00:57:30,670 --> 00:57:33,880

and, um, intellectual discussions.

:

00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:34,790

I mean, this has been

:

00:57:34,790 --> 00:57:35,090

so

:

00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:36,390

SCOTT: eye I'm going

:

00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:36,450

Tali: to

:

00:57:36,450 --> 00:57:36,880

go look

:

00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:37,290

into that

:

00:57:37,300 --> 00:57:37,490

whole

:

00:57:37,490 --> 00:57:38,510

flickering business.

:

00:57:38,610 --> 00:57:38,800

That,

:

00:57:39,150 --> 00:57:39,360

SCOTT: That,

:

00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:40,090

makes me upset.

:

00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:42,020

That makes

:

00:57:42,020 --> 00:57:42,420

me upset.

:

00:57:42,450 --> 00:57:42,880

And just

:

00:57:43,591 --> 00:57:43,970

story

:

00:57:43,970 --> 00:57:44,130

to

:

00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:47,069

Tali: finally wrap this up, we have a

:

00:57:47,070 --> 00:57:47,570

stove

:

00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:49,200

that only has on off

:

00:57:49,210 --> 00:57:49,870

also

:

00:57:50,220 --> 00:57:50,830

because

:

00:57:50,890 --> 00:57:51,040

SCOTT: our

:

00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:51,550

dogs

:

00:57:52,180 --> 00:57:52,360

Tali: got

:

00:57:52,379 --> 00:57:52,599

on

:

00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:52,840

it.

:

00:57:52,879 --> 00:57:53,299

And

:

00:57:53,900 --> 00:57:54,130

SCOTT: when

:

00:57:54,130 --> 00:57:54,220

they

:

00:57:54,220 --> 00:57:54,910

came down,

:

00:57:54,940 --> 00:57:55,210

turn

:

00:57:55,250 --> 00:57:55,580

Tali: all

:

00:57:55,580 --> 00:57:58,010

the handles on and it kind

:

00:57:58,010 --> 00:57:58,130

of

:

00:57:58,130 --> 00:57:58,600

burned

:

00:57:58,785 --> 00:57:59,115

SCOTT: off the

:

00:57:59,876 --> 00:58:00,045

So

:

00:58:00,050 --> 00:58:00,330

Tali: our

:

00:58:00,330 --> 00:58:00,850

stove

:

00:58:00,890 --> 00:58:02,160

is only on off.

:

00:58:03,135 --> 00:58:03,305

SCOTT: So

:

00:58:03,305 --> 00:58:03,895

our medium

:

00:58:03,895 --> 00:58:04,305

heat

:

00:58:04,475 --> 00:58:04,695

is

:

00:58:04,695 --> 00:58:04,965

just.

:

00:58:05,555 --> 00:58:06,695

more, more off

:

00:58:06,715 --> 00:58:06,885

than

:

00:58:06,915 --> 00:58:08,035

on, so I can totally,

:

00:58:08,305 --> 00:58:08,525

it's

:

00:58:09,131 --> 00:58:11,010

ANJAN: guys have an intuitive

understanding of Flickr.

:

00:58:11,020 --> 00:58:11,120

oh,

:

00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:11,370

that's

:

00:58:11,505 --> 00:58:12,455

SCOTT: absolutely understand.

:

00:58:16,915 --> 00:58:17,255

Tali: Yeah.

:

00:58:17,285 --> 00:58:17,665

All right.

:

00:58:17,665 --> 00:58:17,985

SCOTT: Thank

:

00:58:17,985 --> 00:58:19,752

you so much for chatting with us today.

:

00:58:19,752 --> 00:58:20,245

so much.

:

00:58:20,245 --> 00:58:20,705

Hang on.

:

00:58:20,935 --> 00:58:22,075

We'll stop the recording, but

:

00:58:22,104 --> 00:58:22,294

Tali: just

:

00:58:22,345 --> 00:58:22,365

if

:

00:58:22,414 --> 00:58:22,524

you

:

00:58:22,524 --> 00:58:22,975

could hang on

:

00:58:22,975 --> 00:58:23,065

for

:

00:58:23,065 --> 00:58:23,155

a

:

00:58:23,420 --> 00:58:26,479

ANJAN: And something like this

doesn't exist if it isn't for podcasts

:

00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:31,300

Like the only way people found out

about stuff would just be Apple and

:

00:58:33,110 --> 00:58:33,200

Tali: That's true.

:

00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:33,670

Yeah.

:

00:58:33,910 --> 00:58:34,940

ANJAN: feel like we're all on the

:

00:58:35,220 --> 00:58:35,505

Tali: Well,

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Bitcoin Homeschoolers
Bitcoin Homeschoolers
Self-Custody Education

Listen for free

About your hosts

Profile picture for Tali Lindberg

Tali Lindberg

Hey there, wonderful listeners! I'm Tali, and I'm so excited to welcome you to our podcast today. For two decades, I was knee-deep in the incredible journey of homeschooling my four amazing kids. It was a world of boundless creativity, filled with lesson plans, school projects, sports, and beautiful chaos. But when my children all graduated, a brand-new, unforeseen adventure awaited me - the captivating world of Bitcoin.

It took three years for Scott to bring me into Bitcoin. I hesitated at first, Bitcoin's intricacies seemed daunting, and my plate was already quite full. But he persisted, going so far as to create a fantastic bitcoin-mining board game called HODL UP to demystify it all. Before I knew it, I was down the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Just like my homeschooling journey, I took it one step at a time, learning and evolving as I ventured further.

Now, here we are today, and I couldn't be more thrilled to be part of the vibrant Bitcoin community. In an unexpected twist, my husband Scott and I realized that our homeschooling experiences can be a treasure trove of insights for Bitcoiners who, like us, want to take charge of their children's education. So, in addition to sharing our Bitcoin knowledge with Precoiners with HODL UP and the Orange Hatter podcast, we're here to offer tips and guidance for Bitcoin-homeschoolers. It's going to be an incredible journey, and I can't wait to share it with all of you. Enjoy the ride!
Profile picture for Scott Lindberg

Scott Lindberg

Scott Lindberg is a freedom-loving entrepreneur, author, and game designer. He is a proponent of finding freedom by taking self-custody of education, money and speech.

He and his wife, Tali, co-founded Free Market Kids. Their passion is to give the next generation the knowledge and tools to maximize their chances for freedom, success and happiness. Free Market Kids makes it easy and fun to introduce money concepts to kids through tabletop games, courses, lesson plans and trusted resources. They are best known for HODL UP™, a Bitcoin mining game.

Scott graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point in 1993 with a Bachelor of Science in Systems Engineering. In 2001, he graduated Yale’s School of Management with a Master of Business Administration.