Episode 12

₿HS012: Teaching The Art of Learning

SHOW TOPIC:

Josh Waitzkin brings the proof-of-work when it comes to deep learning and flow.  His techniques about learning to learn can be applied anything.  In this episode, Tali and Scott apply them to homeschooling.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU'LL LEARN:

  • Why “life history” resources, namely biographies and autobiographies, make such great learning tools
  • Josh Waitzkin, the author of “The Art of Learning” describes concepts that can make us as parents better teachers
  • The techniques he describes can be used by anyone, any age
  • Because humans relate to things emotionally, reading a living book is the best to get kids interested 
  • Waitzkin strategically thinks about the long term goal (although he does not use the word’s “low time preference”)
  • Waitzkin epitomizes anit-fragile
  • He also goes into great depth about reaching “flow”
  • Immediate feedback is key to flow and key to learning
  • These learning lessons can be applied to anything
  • You can never out success the strength of your character
  • Waitzkin is a master of seeing the world from his opponents’ point of view
  • Constant feedback = adaptive learning
  • Being able to stay in flow when bad things happen is more than understanding your opponents, you really have to understand yourself
  • “Staying soft” emphasizes the importance of finding a state of relaxed concentration, where one can perform at their best in the face of stress
  • “Investing in loss” = seeking out learning from all setbacks and other forms of feedback
  • Teachers, like coaches, need to understand the natural inclinations of their students
  • Balance of encouragement and correction is a fine line to walk
  • Importance of always keeping a beginner’s mind
  • That sense of anti-fragility cannot happen if kids are always winning and not dealing with adversity (back to investment in loss)
  • Visualization is powerful skill to teach kids
  • Another ant-fragile habit to teach kids is to keep a learning journal
  • Don’t trust.  Verify.  Listen to the audible book and pick just one thing that helps you and/or your kids.
  • Effort trumps talent:  Tali challenges the cultural tendency to focus on talent and/or lack of talent, e.g., message to oneself “I’m not good at math”
  • Waitzkin goes deep on everything he does
  • You can use leverage technology to get all types of feedback
  • Train kids to be able to focus in the middle of chaos because conditions are never going to be perfect
  • Face your losses.  Don’t shy away from them.
  • To succeed fast, fail faster
  • Use living books.  Have discussions about them with your kids.

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

  • Josh Waitzkin’s “The Art of Learning: An Inner Journey to Optimal Performance”  Amazon

Other Mentions

  • "Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln" by Doris Kearns Goodwin Amazon
  • The movie ”Searching for Bobby Fischer”
  • Daniel Coyle’s “The Talent Code: Greatness Isn't Born. It's Grown. Here's How.”  Amazon

HAPPY TO HELP:

  • Tali's Twitter @OrangeHatterPod
  • Scott's Twitter @ScottLindberg93
  • Scott's nostr npub19jkuyl0wgrj8kccqzh2vnseeql9v98ptrx407ca9qjsrr4x5j9tsnxx0q6
  • Free Market Kids' Twitter @FreeMarketKids
  • Orange Pill App @FreeMarketKids
  • Free Market Kids' games including HODL UP https://www.freemarketkids.com/collections/games

WAYS TO SUPPORT:

We are essentially our own sponsors and are so grateful for all of you who support this show.  Thank you!

STANDING RESOURCE RECOMMENDATIONS:



Mentioned in this episode:

Aleia Free Market Kids Full

Transcript
Scott:

Hi everyone.

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In today's podcast, Talia and

I are going to review a helpful

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resource for homeschooling parents.

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And this is a book that is also very

appropriate for your kids curriculum.

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So really quick, before we jump

in, I want to take just a moment to

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explain some context of what we're,

of what we're going to talk about.

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It is based on a method of study that

involves biographies and autobiographies.

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So you might've heard biographical

research or life history, and it

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is exactly what it sounds like.

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So the approach is essentially

doing a, a study of someone's

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life, their experiences, and.

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And then from that, you learn

about the history or the culture

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or social context, other things

that help shape those experiences.

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And it's very, very effective.

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Especially with, um,

especially with audible books.

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You can use this with very young children.

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I say this as an engineer who

did not enjoy or appreciate

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history while I was in school.

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An example I have of, to show how

effective it is, is a book that I really

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enjoy listening to called Team of Rivals.

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This is about Lincoln.

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And it was written by a

woman named Doris Goodwin.

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And it basically explains how he came

to be president and his relationship

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with his cabinet, which was his rivals.

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Hugely interesting, even as an engineer.

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So today's podcast, we're going to

use this kind of technique in the

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book where we're reviewing is the

art of learning by Josh Waiskin.

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I hope you enjoy.

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And with that, let's jump in.

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Tali: You have to be able to get past

that the opening move and have enough

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endurance and mental discipline to

get through to the end of the game.

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And that's the comparison he

had between , the high time

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preference and low time preference.

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Scott: he applies the same type

of methodology that he did in

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chess matches into martial arts.

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You could apply that to anything.

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You could apply that to yourself and

becoming the best homeschooling parent.

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Ever.

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,

Tali: The highest level athletes all learn this from their performance

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coaches, but for whatever reason it

doesn't trickle down to common education

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Scott: you're not going to go

through life and not have setbacks.

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So your, your choice is

what do you do about it?

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Right.

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, if you read this book and you're

inspired, maybe you can learn to invest

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in loss and use it to make you yourself

better, use it to advance your goals.

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Tali: For the homeschoolers out there,

I would encourage you to use living

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books like this as much as possible

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Scott: Welcome Bitcoin homeschoolers.

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Today, Talia and I are going to

look at a resource that you might

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not expect would be helpful.

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But as you, uh, as we go through this

conversation, I think that you'll

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find, , there's, there's something

in here for parents and there's

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something in here for, for kids.

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Specifically, we're talking

about the book called The Art

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of Learning by Josh Waitzkin.

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Josh Waitzkin is best known as the

person that the movie, Seeking,

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uh, Bobby Fischer was based on.

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Tali: In search of Bobby Fisher.

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From a

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Scott: Alright, thank you.

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In search of Bobby Fisher.

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So, from a homeschooling standpoint,

the first thing that I want to say is to

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be open minded about how we teach kids

and not just give them a list of facts.

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The idea of using biographies, or in

this case, maybe, An autobiography.

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This is a way of helping someone really

understand the context of what some of

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these historic figures have gone through.

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And in this case, this

person is still alive.

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So I guess maybe not historic, but

it's a lot more personal than a list

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of names and dates, and especially

if you listen to it on audible, you

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can actually hear it in their own.

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On voice for, the reason Josh Waiskin

kind of hit, he had a few things

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for, for me personally, he talks

about a lot of concepts that we as

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parents can use to be better teachers.

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And he also has a very

interesting story, so you can

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either take away pieces of this.

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And how you teach or maybe

for the older kids, they can

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actually read it themselves.

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So depending on the age of your,

your students, they can be, they

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can take different things from it.

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So, all right, tell me, do you,

we, I have a list of things

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to, deep dive on this thing.

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Is there one particular area that stood

out that you'd like to start with?

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Tali: Well, in referencing what you said

about reading autobiography as a way

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of kids learning, it's, it's basically

if you, if you know the Charlotte Mason

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method, it's basically equivalent to what

they're saying about learning through

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living books because authors who write.

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On a subject that they're absolutely

passionate about have a tone

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and a voice that comes through

that is absolutely absent for

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Things that you would read in a textbook

that's by a subject that's written

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by what they would quote unquote call

experts, but The emotionally it's flat.

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And as human beings, we relate to

things emotionally first and foremost.

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And so learning, reading a living

book written by an author who's

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passionate about the subjects is

absolutely the best way to get your kids

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interested in the information itself.

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So

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for people who are not interested in

chess or in Tai Chi and the martial arts

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aspect of Tai Chi can still learn a lot

about his learning process because you do

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get emotionally sucked into his stories.

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Scott: Yeah, his stories, they're

about what he went through.

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Learning the stresses, people who

cheated on him, how he dealt with

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that when he got to martial arts,

he basically went from literally

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knowing nothing to, to world champion.

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And he's a deep, deep thinker.

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So he, he thinks about the longterm,

he doesn't call it low time preference,

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but he definitely thinks about the

longterm and he's definitely anti

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fragile he'll, he'll hit a setback.

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Someone will do something and it'll upset

him or he'll lose or whatever it is.

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And he will journal and he will say,

what, what state was I in at this time?

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And then he'll go back and

then he'll, he'll study more.

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He, he talked about the number of

times that he would review his games

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and what he was feeling on them.

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The number of times that he would

review his tapes from the martial arts.

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So I would, I just want to

get this out, out in front.

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To me, he exhibits the qualities of

someone who can really get into flow.

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And.

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There's, uh, my understanding of,

of, of flow that you, you need

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to have clear specific goals.

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And he definitely did that.

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He had these long term objectives.

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You need immediate feedback.

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And this is where he just excels

and where the, there's a ton to

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learn in from the art of learning.

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And then the challenge has to be something

that's outside your current skill level.

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And so he just, he applies the same

type of methodology that he did in

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chess matches into martial arts.

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And to me, that means you

could apply that to anything.

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You could apply that to yourself and

becoming the best homeschooling parent.

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Ever.

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You could apply that to teaching your

kids on how they can get into flow,

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how they can deal with setbacks,

how they can deal with stress,

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how they can, how they can learn.

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And you can apply it to your career.

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You could apply it to anywhere.

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It's, it's, it's, uh, I think it's

really a good, the, the name of

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the book being art of learning.

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Really captures it and he just proves

it with two very different areas and he

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makes a lot of analogies between them.

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And and then tolly you you hit on this

he uses a lot of stories in this thing So

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this is something you can actually listen

to it's not dry at all Some of the stories

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will really pull you in all right.

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Tali: Me add something.

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Let me add something.

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So, he draws in an actually,

he doesn't draw an analogy.

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Um, he states in the book that this

is referencing his chess games.

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He said that who he was as a person was

absolutely reflected in the way he played.

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And so you can't really separate the two.

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And I've heard people say that your

success can never, you can never out

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success the strength of a character.

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And in that way, if we.

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Allow our kids to listen to this, or even

if we listen to it and then relate the

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lessons to our kids, we can stress the

importance of not the accomplishments

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or the outcome of your efforts, but

rather your personal growth through

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the journey, because he does reference

that over and over again as he's going

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through the difference, the struggle,

the struggle of losing and then having to

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maintain his composure when he was under

pressure and how he was under pressure.

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Overcame those mental, growth milestones.

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Scott: Maybe we can tell a couple

of the stories that he, what he did.

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So the, the ability from a game

theory standpoint of being able

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to put yourself in somebody else's

shoes and seeing it from their

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perspective, he's a master at this.

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He, he, he would, regardless of

whether it was a chess opponent

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or a martial arts opponent.

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He really did.

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He really went deep on what they,

what they were thinking, how they

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reacted, not just like their, their

strategies or their techniques.

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He would go really deep.

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And then he would use this,

this, this adaptive learning.

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He was getting constant feedback and,

and it wasn't just like, Hey, good job or

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bad job or whatever, you know, whatever

after a chess match or another match.

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This was a matter of saying, well,

if you tell someone feedback or

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you give someone feedback right

after they've had a challenge,

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they're not ready to receive that.

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So even knowing when and how to

communicate that, that feedback.

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He would, he would even adapt, he would

continue to adapt not just his techniques,

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but he would continue to adapt his

learning techniques on how he would do it.

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And the idea of these constant feedback

loops is really, really interesting.

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And you start off with, he talked about

making smaller and smaller circles.

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You'd, you can start out with,

with whatever it is, you've

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got to learn the basic things.

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And then once you're, once you've mastered

those, and you can learn the next level

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of the basic things and the next level,

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Tali: The

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Scott: The thing that sticks out to

me is In today's society, there's

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always somebody to blame, right?

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No one wants to, it's not

like we teach responsibility.

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At West Point, we'd say, one of your

responses was, it was like, yes, sir.

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No, sir.

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You could say, , sir, may I ask

a question, but it was no excuse.

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He didn't, it was one of your responses

was not, , someone else hurt me.

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Or someone else cheated and

he gave specific examples.

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So there was a, an individual

when he was going through his,

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his chess career, who would

intentionally distract his opponents.

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And he would get up and talk to you.

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It's like he was speaking another

language, Russian or whatever it

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was, or he would tap or he would

do, he was doing things that

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were clearly against the rules.

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And one reaction could

be to go and complain.

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You go to the judges and you say, this

guy, this, this kid is doing stuff.

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That's, that's really bad.

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And he's, they're doing it on purpose.

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So one of the things that Weitzkin

did is he went back and he figured out

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Tali: So,

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Scott: how basically to, to use that

to his own advantage on, he changed his

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techniques playing with that individual.

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So first of all, what is the trigger?

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And he could recognize the trigger.

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Okay.

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He's using the technique.

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And then he had practiced

how to respond to that.

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And basically.

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He changed the game on this person.

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Yes, it wasn't and it wasn't just

a matter of going say hey someone

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else You need to go police this guy.

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He did the same thing in martial arts.

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He was talking about the the championship

It was like every two years it was in

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Taiwan and he got into what the culture

was like and he was going against a

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very popular local champion and There

were blatant, blatant, blatant things,

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times when the judges would do things

that favored the opponent, like they,

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the opponent knew changes to the rules

ahead of time, but they wouldn't tell

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the foreigners until the last minute.

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And then they would try to,

they wouldn't give them food.

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And then when they wouldn't eat, then

they would immediately call them there.

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So now they're in a bad state when, um,

they're not in a less ideal state when

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they're competing and they just did.

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And then there was the calls that they

made and there was all these different

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things that were part of the culture.

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That essentially it's like the referee

basically favoring one, one team.

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So the next time he went back, he had

changed a lot of different things.

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And in the moment when these things

would happen, he was able to still focus.

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So long way of saying in this world, there

are going to be people out there who do

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things to, to hurt you, who don't play

fair, bad things are going to happen.

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So it's, it's a lot more

than just the psychology of.

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The opponent and thinking through step

by step, it's also knowing yourself

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and really understanding yourself.

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Now imagine if you had those skills,

imagine if your kids had those skills,

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how much better off they would be.

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I

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Tali: I think the illustration he

made in the book was staying soft.

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So in the case when his opponent was

cheating, he could get angry and allow

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that to break his concentration, or

he can train himself to work with

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it and win despite the cheating.

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So that was a self improvement moment

rather than a anger, uh, lash out or

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just play victim kind of mentality.

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And obviously it's, it's unfair.

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Nobody's going to question that statement,

but You after that, what do you do?

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and he always just dealt with it and

worked with what he had to work with

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and Then try to figure out a way to beat

it one example he gave was the the time

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when he was crossing the street in New

York and this lady Next to him had her

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earphones in and she looked at the down

the wrong side of the street stepped off

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the curb And a bike messenger almost hit

her instead of realizing her mistake,

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which was that she wasn't paying attention

and she looked down the wrong side of

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the street, she turned and yelled at the

bike messenger that was speeding away.

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Well, as she was doing that, she

missed another car that was coming

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around the corner and she was hit.

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So the lesson was, . You can recognize

your mistake and correct your own

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actions, or you can focus your attention

on blaming and then potentially hurt

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yourself even more in the long run.

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Scott: Right, you're managing

stress at a level that most

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people just don't, don't do.

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So it's the soft zone.

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Yeah, that, that was excellent.

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Another, another area that he

talked about was investing in loss.

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So throughout the book, no matter

what he was talking about, no

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matter how frustrating and how

bad things were, and he would

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document in his journal how he felt.

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I, I'm mad, I'm hurt, I'm this, I'm

whatever, but he, he actually embraces

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the idea that you have to make mistakes.

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You have to have losses.

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And if you, if you embrace loss as

a way to, to take from it something

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that can make you better than.

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Then you're, you're

basically in, it's weird.

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It's a weird way of saying it,

but you're investing in the loss.

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So you have to get yourself out there.

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You have to take action.

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And then from a feedback standpoint, it's

not just saying I had that experience

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and then I want to go forget about it.

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It was more of the, it was much more

of a, let's, let's dissect this thing.

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Let me go and see the eye movements of

my, uh, Opponents, they're the smallest

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way that they would shift their weight or

not shift their weight or maybe someone

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would change their breathing right

before they would do a certain thing.

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I mean you're telling my new,

but he didn't start there.

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He had a, um, he went through

a lot of, a lot of pain and,

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Tali: through a lot of,

a lot of pain and, um,

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Scott: also lose enough

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Tali: That you are continuously improving.

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And that is a very difficult

balance to achieve.

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And that is down to the player

or the competitor and also

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a great coach in the book.

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He also makes a comparison towards

the end of his chess career.

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He was losing his passion and he Was

trying to break through to the next level

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and he had a change of coaches and he

had two choices He had one coach who was

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exceptionally Single minded about the

best way to train the students So his

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approach was to break the student down

so that he can build them up in what

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he believed was the optimal way and his

way of playing was very very different

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from Josh's natural inclination to play

The other coach spend the first part of

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his coaching with a student by observing

the student and how the student played.

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And then his method was to help

the student excel in the way that

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the student naturally played.

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So two very, very different approaches.

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And Josh makes a comparison

between the two of them.

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One, the one that he chose to go with,

Which ultimately ended his career was the

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guy who made him feel like he shouldn't

trust himself because he was instructed

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to think, what would his coach do?

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And in that way, he started

to ignore his instinct.

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He felt like he wasn't playing himself.

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He watched, he felt like he was

watching himself play from a distance.

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And so.

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That balance of encouragement and

correction, that's a fine line to walk.

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And so he made that comparison,

and I think it's really helpful

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for students, not students, for

homeschooling parents to think that way.

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You know, to, to pay really close

attention to, to that balance

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of teaching and encouraging.

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Scott: Right, and it might

depend on the student too, right?

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It's not going to be the

same for each, uh, student.

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The, the second thing about that

is, he gave a lot of thought to

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who he wanted to be coached by.

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This wasn't a He was very much going to

make the future he wanted, and he gave

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a great deal of thought to who was right

for him, even though, like your, imagine

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telling your friend, Hey, you're, you

can't be my business partner anymore

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because we've reached a new level.

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Tali: So,

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Scott: terms of his, his coaching.

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He had grown close to these,

these individuals because we

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spent a lot of time together.

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So he was thinking

about the bigger picture.

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And so not only did he recognize

all the things that you just said,

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but then he also had the courage

to, to make a decision, right?

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Also, he talked about the beginners, I

don't know if he called it the beginner's

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mind, but he, he was always open to

new, new perspective and approaches

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:

no matter how experienced you got.

331

:

And I, and I think he mentioned

that, for example, a lot of chess

332

:

clubs , the coaches would be tempted

to just teach the kids a whole

333

:

bunch of starting moves, right?

334

:

A whole bunch of things.

335

:

Tali: And

336

:

Scott: Initially, this, depending on

the age, this can be very effective

337

:

in terms of helping new chess players

do very well against their opponents.

338

:

But in longer games and things

in tournaments and like that, it

339

:

doesn't necessarily help them there.

340

:

And, and his approach was to

focus on the fundamentals.

341

:

And so.

342

:

He just kept learning and

learning and learning.

343

:

He, he

344

:

Tali: can I, can I correct you actually?

345

:

So, The example you're giving about

the kids who are learning chess,

346

:

what the difference, the differences

between what he believes is.

347

:

The best way and what a lot of chess

clubs teach their students is the

348

:

chess clubs teach their students to

memorize aggressive opening moves

349

:

Whereas josh started by being trained

with three pieces on the board.

350

:

He was He was learning the

ending moves when there were

351

:

very few pieces on the board.

352

:

And so he learned to understand the

nuance and the power of each individual

353

:

piece so that he could make sense of.

354

:

Chaos in the middle of the play and his

strength was in the ending of the game.

355

:

Whereas these students were taught

with the, what you would call, um,

356

:

high time preference because these

were elementary school chess coaches

357

:

and their job was to make sure that

their students placed high that year.

358

:

And so if they were a third year

359

:

Scott: student coaches,

360

:

Tali: They didn't care that the

students would not progress beyond

361

:

seventh or eighth grade because they

were, they had done their job making

362

:

these kids into champions in the third

grade by teaching them or having them

363

:

memorize aggressive opening moves.

364

:

Aggressive opening moves work if you

are competing against other new players.

365

:

Scott: chess players.

366

:

Tali: But when you get into the more

experienced chess player games, you

367

:

have to be able to get past that

the opening move and have enough

368

:

endurance and mental discipline to

get through to the end of the game.

369

:

And that's the comparison he had

between the long, the high time

370

:

preference and low time preference.

371

:

If you have a long term view and Josh did

because he was looking, he was looking at.

372

:

A

373

:

Scott: long

374

:

Tali: term view.

375

:

What's another way of saying it?

376

:

He was just

377

:

Scott: low time preference.

378

:

Tali: was, yeah, he was just looking

at, you know, how would the student

379

:

develop eventually versus the coach

of one grade year and the chess club

380

:

training that was offered in that year.

381

:

Does that make sense?

382

:

Scott: sense?

383

:

Yeah.

384

:

So I, yeah, I don't disagree

with everything you're saying.

385

:

I remember, I recall what

you're, you're talking about.

386

:

And I, I think I, the, the point I was

trying to make, and maybe I blurred

387

:

them together was if you're, if

you're always open to, even when you

388

:

get better, let's say you've, you've

trained up to a certain high level.

389

:

Some people just stagnate there.

390

:

They don't make it to champion.

391

:

And he was always open to keep on learning

new perspectives, new approaches, new.

392

:

Techniques knew whatever, what it was.

393

:

So the, okay, here's a different example.

394

:

He gave, he was in the gym and

he said he wanted to get better.

395

:

So he, he was starting to get paired

up with, some giants of a, like

396

:

some huge guy who was also like

multiple black belts, whatever else.

397

:

And this opponent of

his, but usually just,

398

:

Tali: he

399

:

Scott: just dominate whoever he

was in the, in the dojo with him.

400

:

And.

401

:

He kept every night going back and

doing it again and again and again,

402

:

even though he was literally getting

thrown to the mats and literally

403

:

getting whatever bruises you get

from being tossed around so much.

404

:

But through time he, he was

learning the techniques.

405

:

He was learning the tells, if you will.

406

:

And That person stagnated where they

were, whereas he was continuing to get

407

:

better and better looking for new things.

408

:

And he eventually was able one, one

day when he was there, he was able to,

409

:

where he got to throw in and it got

to the point where he was able to beat

410

:

this person who physically otherwise

would, should be dominating him.

411

:

And then after that, the guy didn't want

to, didn't want to fight him anymore.

412

:

So Josh's approach was, I'm going to

keep fighting this guy who's a lot

413

:

better than me until I figure it out.

414

:

The other guy was, as soon as

he had someone that actually

415

:

beat him, he wanted to stop.

416

:

Because he could dominate everybody else.

417

:

And so, the other guy was not a

martial arts champion, and Josh was.

418

:

And I think it comes back to

Josh's perspective on always

419

:

being open to new experiences.

420

:

Perspective approaches, no matter

what level you've reached, no

421

:

matter what level of parenting,

what level of schooling, whatever.

422

:

So different than what you were saying,

still an important lesson, I think.

423

:

Tali: Well, the thing about the, the

Um, kids were taught the aggressive

424

:

opening moves and will win quickly.

425

:

And what they, the way that they

will compare their scorecard

426

:

with each other would be how many

moves did you make before you won?

427

:

So that was their scorecard.

428

:

And when they got older and

they didn't win all the time

429

:

anymore, these kids all quit.

430

:

And that kind of goes back

to what you're saying is.

431

:

Scott: That,

432

:

Tali: that sense of anti fragile

mentality, that cannot happen

433

:

if they're always winning.

434

:

That's why that investment

in loss is so important.

435

:

Uh,

436

:

Scott: Hmm.

437

:

Yep.

438

:

Uh, there, there are a couple other

areas that I thought were worthy of, of.

439

:

Trying to put it incorporated

into your, your homeschooling

440

:

experience, because again, these are

things that I would like to learn.

441

:

I wish I had learned

earlier technique wise.

442

:

And there's, there are things that had.

443

:

Had we been able to teach our own

kids some of these principles,

444

:

I would love to have more

deliberately taught some of them.

445

:

One of the ones, and I know that, Talia,

I know we talked about visualization

446

:

with our, with our, with our kids, but

the, one of the examples Josh Wason

447

:

goes into in depth about visualization

and how he uses it to prepare for,

448

:

Matches how he prepares for how he's

going to handle his feelings and things.

449

:

One of the ones that stuck out

to me was he had, he had broken

450

:

his, uh, I think it was his wrist.

451

:

He, he, he broke something in his

hand and the doctors basically

452

:

said, you're not going to be able

to compete at the world championship

453

:

that you've been preparing for.

454

:

And.

455

:

They basically said, you're going to

cast for this long and then you're going

456

:

to get it off like a week or so before

then there's not enough time for you with

457

:

all the muscle atrophy to, to recover.

458

:

And he would still continue to work

out for the rest of his body, like

459

:

his weights and things that he could,

except for the one that was immobile

460

:

with the, with the cast, but he was

visualizing using it the whole time.

461

:

And when he actually had the cast off,

they, the doctors were amazed at how.

462

:

Little atrophy had actually experienced

during that, and he was actually

463

:

able to go back and compete and, and

the, the, I don't want to ruin the

464

:

punchline, but he does end up winning.

465

:

So the, the power of his, and I'm, and I'm

not saying you're going to go out there

466

:

and heal yourself, but, but man, he, he

really put in the work with visualization.

467

:

I mean, he really would,

uh, would do that.

468

:

And that is a skill that if you could

teach a young kid, you know, And just

469

:

so that they think that visualization is

a normal type thing to use to prepare.

470

:

And then afterwards, how to handle

those failures and all those

471

:

other things we just talked about.

472

:

These are great anti fragile skill

sets to, that can really help our

473

:

kids out as they, as they grow.

474

:

So anyway, did, was there

anything from a visualization

475

:

standpoint that stood out for you?

476

:

Tali: Yeah, I I think I, I shared

a study with the kids when we

477

:

were going through homeschooling.

478

:

And the example was, two, two study

groups, one study group played musical

479

:

scales physically on the piano every

day for a certain amount of time.

480

:

The other group played it only in

their mind for the same amount of time.

481

:

And at the end of the study,

they were supposed to play

482

:

the scales and the group that.

483

:

Okay.

484

:

Did the visualization actually performed

better I can't reference that study you

485

:

can probably Google it but I I remember

talking about it with our kids because it

486

:

is so powerful and is so Unconventional

it the highest level athletes all learn

487

:

this from their performance coaches,

but for whatever reason it doesn't

488

:

trickle down to common education

489

:

Scott: Yeah, including visualization.

490

:

I don't think we're experts on

it, but including visualization

491

:

and what you teach your kids, uh,

that's pretty, pretty important.

492

:

Another thing that I, that I thought

would be a good habit to teach

493

:

kids would be the learning journal.

494

:

And it's more than, um, like I've

already referenced it a couple

495

:

of times in the conversation.

496

:

But he would go back, for example, and

look at his tapes and not just like,

497

:

whether it's chess or the martial

arts, and he would look at them and

498

:

look at them and look at them again,

and he would go back to his journal

499

:

and he would link the two together.

500

:

So.

501

:

What had gone on before that event,

what, what did he miss during it that

502

:

he could now the time had passed and

he was more calm, he could, he could

503

:

identify and then make a plan for it.

504

:

But he would realize, Hey, I

really was thrown off my game

505

:

Tali: at

506

:

Scott: this point because

this is what I was feeling.

507

:

And he would, he would have kind

of this insight about himself.

508

:

But it was only because he had

been keeping a journal of his,

509

:

his, his progress and was able

to go back and then apply it.

510

:

So it was, it was, it was more than

just keeping a journal and then you,

511

:

you don't go back and look at it.

512

:

It, this was a matter of, he was

proactively using it as a, as a tool.

513

:

And for, for super young kids,

just the habit of journaling is, is

514

:

probably all you would need to do.

515

:

Uh, but I, I would think that, you know,

junior high, high school, being able to

516

:

go back through past experiences and.

517

:

And link, link of what you were

feeling, how did you prepare, et cetera.

518

:

That's an interesting thing.

519

:

I don't, uh, I think very, very, very

few people or a very small percent of

520

:

the other population would do that.

521

:

And the ones that are doing it are

probably the ones that have some kind

522

:

of professional coach, but nothing stops

you or their kids from, from doing that.

523

:

Anybody can do that.

524

:

Tali: That

525

:

Scott: That was another thing too, is

that these are all things that there

526

:

was nothing that he said where you

said, man, he just had a God given

527

:

skill and nobody else can do anything.

528

:

The things that he was listing out

were like, it was like, wow, those are

529

:

things that anybody can use as a tool.

530

:

Maybe not everybody will achieve the

same, same level, but there's nothing

531

:

about these techniques that, that

are only, you know, for some given

532

:

select few of these, the things that

he listed out for these different

533

:

learning techniques, anybody can apply.

534

:

And again, I go back to, wouldn't

you want your kids to have

535

:

that, these kind of lessons.

536

:

So even if you only took one thing from

the book, , as I, as I think about this,

537

:

if we were sitting down with someone like

in person and talking about this, even if

538

:

you took away just one thing from the book

that can help improve either you or your

539

:

kids, uh, your, your habits in your life,

like, You, you would want to do that.

540

:

And, um, you know, don't trust

us, you know, verify for yourself.

541

:

Don't trust verify.

542

:

Um, the worst that you have is

you lose a couple hours, few

543

:

hours listening to an audible book

544

:

Tali: Doing it.

545

:

Um,

546

:

Scott: doing it.

547

:

Um, but I liked the journal.

548

:

Did you, did you have any

thoughts on the journal?

549

:

Tali: thoughts on the journal?

550

:

I think the journal is a great idea.

551

:

I don't think it's practical

for a lot of people.

552

:

So, you know, take from it what

you can and don't feel like

553

:

any, you have to do any of it.

554

:

Take, take from it what you

can and what you can apply.

555

:

And that's the most important thing.

556

:

Another thing I want to

mention from the book.

557

:

It's something that we've already

talked about before in the previous

558

:

episodes, but I just want to reiterate

because it is, it is a common cultural

559

:

Scott: belief

560

:

Tali: I believe that I think we

should try to overcome, which

561

:

is this whole notion of talent.

562

:

, I just hear so many people say, Oh,

I'm just not good at math, almost like,

563

:

therefore they shouldn't have to try kind

of thing, or I'm just not good at writing.

564

:

I, I suck at spelling or

something like that, like talent,

565

:

Trump's effort, and he makes it.

566

:

A point in this book that if that as

parents, when you give feedback to your

567

:

kids, the nuance is what determines

that the belief in one way or the

568

:

other, the, the talent versus effort.

569

:

So for example, if your child comes

home and she's gotten an A, In math and

570

:

you say, Oh my gosh, you're so smart.

571

:

You're so good at math.

572

:

You're really highlighting

the talent side.

573

:

But if you say something like, I'm so

proud of you, you work so hard, then

574

:

you're emphasizing the effort side.

575

:

If she comes home and

she gets, let's say a C.

576

:

In English, you can, you don't have to

say, Oh, you know, terrible at English.

577

:

It's just not, it's not your strong suit.

578

:

You can say something like, well, maybe

next time you work a little harder on your

579

:

paper and ask your teacher some questions.

580

:

That's what she's there for.

581

:

She can help you.

582

:

And then you emphasize that.

583

:

The effort is what is the most important.

584

:

And in that way, you also empower

your child in whatever pursue,

585

:

you know, it down the road.

586

:

A book I would like to recommend

is called the talent code.

587

:

And it specifically addresses this,

this notion of talent versus effort.

588

:

It's a very, very small book.

589

:

You can look it up on

Amazon, the talent code.

590

:

Scott: on Amazon.

591

:

Yeah, no, I remember you

talking about that previously.

592

:

So some of these concepts

are going to tie.

593

:

We've now, a lot of these things

tie into each other, so we can kind

594

:

of go more quickly through them.

595

:

I have a note here about the

idea of incremental learning

596

:

and the feedback loops.

597

:

So we've talked about how

he would break down things.

598

:

He'd start with whatever it is and they

have his circles and he would get smaller

599

:

and smaller and keep on, , refining.

600

:

You should explain

601

:

Tali: what that means.

602

:

Scott: So Yeah.

603

:

I wish I could do it as articulately as he

does, but I mean, when you, when you first

604

:

go in to learn, for example, martial arts,

or I guess you could even use a chess,

605

:

you're, you're not going to try to learn

the same type of things that a master in

606

:

those areas is going to be focused on.

607

:

Right.

608

:

You don't, you don't go to a novice

in martial arts and talk about the

609

:

opponent's breathing and where their

body weight is and whatever else

610

:

you're just, you're going to, you

need to learn the muscle memory.

611

:

Of the most basic movements so that

you can, you can get those down and the

612

:

same thing with chess, like you said

earlier, where he learned how each piece

613

:

worked and he learned how each pairing.

614

:

So this is how the Knight

and the Bishop work together.

615

:

This is how the Rook and

the Bishop work together.

616

:

This is how the Knight, I mean,

and then you build up and build up

617

:

and you eventually get to the point

where you're working on strategies.

618

:

High level strategies as opposed to just

starting with here's an opening move.

619

:

Here's your strategy on that

620

:

Tali: Well, I will explain

it the opposite way.

621

:

So I'll use Tai Chi Chan as an example.

622

:

When you're a novice, you follow

the teacher and you understand the

623

:

general, the steps, you know, the

choreography, the general way you

624

:

should, , lift your arm and the way

that you should put one step forward and

625

:

bend your knees and that kind of thing.

626

:

So very general things, but eventually

as you get more and more advanced,

627

:

you start to get into this really.

628

:

Really nuance things like where

is your hip when you stand?

629

:

Is it in the center of your

right foot like your hip weight?

630

:

Is it to the left?

631

:

Is it to the right?

632

:

Is your weight on your big

toes, your weight on your heel?

633

:

So when you get more advanced you

you start to break down each movement

634

:

into smaller smaller pieces It's

the nuance in the nuance is how

635

:

you win and improve your skills.

636

:

Not the big flow.

637

:

So it's like a 10, 000 foot You know

like Bert's eye view of what's going

638

:

on and then eventually you, you funnel

narrower and narrower into the nuances.

639

:

I think that's what you're

referring to, right?

640

:

Scott: Well, I liked the

way you explained that.

641

:

And that makes sense a lot with

a lot of his examples of, of what

642

:

he was looking for when he was.

643

:

What, when he was getting to the

highest levels of competition, the, the

644

:

smallest of details and how much time

he spent on the things that he never

645

:

would have even been able to notice

before, because he was trying to learn

646

:

the, the, I think he used an analogy

of like learning to drive, right?

647

:

Like you, first thing you need to do

is like, like the car needs to move.

648

:

And so you just like learn how to

use the gas and the brakes, right?

649

:

Uh, the nuances of.

650

:

What's the weather like, the distance

one driver is keeping from another.

651

:

Are they, how much are

they moving or swaying?

652

:

Does that mean that they, maybe they're,

you know, they're, they're sleepy

653

:

or on drugs or something like you.

654

:

I forget what he used like that, but

you, the nuances of things, you can't see

655

:

those details when you first start out.

656

:

Because you're just focused on

the big, you're just learning the

657

:

big, the big picture of things.

658

:

, that's the also like

the muscle memory too.

659

:

Like you, you can't focus

on the smaller things.

660

:

If you're still trying

to do the basic things,

661

:

all right.

662

:

Um, Yeah, but they, , incremental

learning, feedback loops, the deep focus.

663

:

We touched about that early on immersion.

664

:

He, he certainly, uh, Waze can, he

is, he goes deep, he goes really,

665

:

really deep on anything that he does.

666

:

And I don't know if everybody.

667

:

It has that, um, the willingness to,

to go as deep, but on the, on the other

668

:

hand, let's, let's talk this quickly

to, to tools and technologies that are

669

:

available today, we've talked about

that, like the whole idea of Jeff booth

670

:

and tech where technology is going.

671

:

It's very.

672

:

You know, Bitcoin thing, it's that's

deflationary versus money, but you look

673

:

at where AI is today and you look at

all the, the, the different things we

674

:

have, you can, you can get creative and

use technology to help with feedback.

675

:

Just the fact that you can record

things, um, at different levels.

676

:

And now, now you could even probably

put some of those things you could play.

677

:

If you were competing in chess, you could

probably put that into an AI, AI program.

678

:

Let it analyze it for

you to, um, I don't know.

679

:

I haven't tried that myself, but if you

want to look at where your heart rate is

680

:

and you're breathing, you can get like a

Garmin watch and you can get feedback on,

681

:

you know, how, how different things I, my

point is, I don't know exactly how to do.

682

:

I do.

683

:

I just know that., Get creative in

how you use technology and you don't

684

:

have to get to a world class level

to have some benefit in your life.

685

:

And there's a lot of things available

today that can help with feedback.

686

:

So that was my thought on,

uh, on the feedback loops.

687

:

Tali: Well, taking that tiny little

step further, he talks about how

688

:

when you become ultra focused, you

can notice the tiniest thing that's

689

:

happening within your own body.

690

:

So you're talking about wearing

a garment for biofeedback.

691

:

But I have found through meditation that

you know how people say, take your pulse

692

:

and you got to find your, the vein on

your neck or the vein on your wrist,

693

:

and then you can count the heartbeat.

694

:

When you pay attention, you don't

need that because you can feel

695

:

your heartbeat on your skin.

696

:

So when he's in flow, when he is

absolutely focused across the table from

697

:

his chest competitor or across the floor.

698

:

You know, with his Tai Chi Chen

competitor, he can feel their breathing,

699

:

he can feel the flicker of fear,

he can feel everything that they're

700

:

feeling as if it's his own because

he's paying that close attention.

701

:

And I, I think even as we're relying

more and more on technology to give

702

:

us feedback, don't forget how powerful

we already are within our own body.

703

:

Scott: body.

704

:

When we started off this discussion,

why did we pick Josh Wadeskin?

705

:

And part of it is you can learn a lot

from like we were talking about, like

706

:

a, an autobiography or biography.

707

:

He actually does have a lot

of techniques where he says,

708

:

here's my, my toolkit for that.

709

:

But one of the things I liked

about it is he's a model.

710

:

Like he has a, there's a, I have a mental

image now of someone who knows how to

711

:

get into flow based on his ability to.

712

:

Go through all the things we

were just talking about and

713

:

one of the reasons to pick him.

714

:

I'm sorry you went

715

:

Tali: just ask something as

you're mentioning the flow thing?

716

:

I thought one more thing I want

to talk about from the book that

717

:

he shared with us that I think

would be really interesting is one.

718

:

I remember when the kids were really

little, we were told that babies needed

719

:

a quiet place to sleep that when it's

nap time, it's like the phone is off the

720

:

you, you pull down the shade, you close

the door and it's like silence and quiet.

721

:

And you it's almost like you have

to create this environment in

722

:

order to help your baby sleep.

723

:

And he was talking about how when

he was playing chess, if there were

724

:

external, um, Like interruptions.

725

:

So, for example, when he was facing the

kid who was very, very, What's it called?

726

:

Underhandedly tapping his

727

:

Scott: his, uh,

728

:

Tali: chest piece when he knew

that Josh was making a decision

729

:

because he can read Josh too.

730

:

That, that little imperceptible noise

was picked up by his subconscious

731

:

mind and it distracted him.

732

:

And then he said what he did going forward

was to train himself to be able to focus.

733

:

in the middle of chaos.

734

:

So he would turn up all different

genre of music and blast it in

735

:

his room as he's trying to focus.

736

:

And that was how he trained

his ability to focus.

737

:

And I think that it's really important as

parents, we train our kids to be able to

738

:

focus in the middle of chaos, because the

condition is never going to be perfect.

739

:

And if we If we tell the kids that

conditions have to be perfect, as

740

:

in turn off your music, as in pull

the shade down, you know, you have

741

:

to sit in your chair and everything.

742

:

Everybody has to be quiet.

743

:

Everybody's a tiptoe

so that you can focus.

744

:

Then then that's that's really

doing your child a disservice.

745

:

Scott: Mm hmm.

746

:

No, I, I agree with that.

747

:

Um, it's interesting.

748

:

So where, where I was going is.

749

:

The one of the reasons to read

this book is he's interesting.

750

:

He has a ton of really cool,

interesting stories throughout.

751

:

This is not a, this is not a,

and then I did Y and then I

752

:

did Z and then I did whatever.

753

:

He has all kinds of

interesting stories in there.

754

:

So it's real life.

755

:

You can learn from it from, from a

parenting standpoint, you, you can, you

756

:

can learn how to deal with stress better.

757

:

We can learn how to deal with setbacks

better and distractions better.

758

:

All of us can learn this even at a, as

an adult, we can do better with that.

759

:

But there's also things you can

take away from it for your kids, no

760

:

matter what, what level they're at.

761

:

You just have to adapt what those.

762

:

What those concepts are.

763

:

So if you're trying to teach

how to embrace loss to, uh, an

764

:

elementary age student, that's

probably gonna be different than.

765

:

A middle aged student and the things

that you would ask in a high school,

766

:

Tali: necessarily embrace loss

767

:

Scott: Yeah.

768

:

Tali: learn from loss, I think.

769

:

Scott: he embraced it.

770

:

Yeah, that's what he

called the investment in,

771

:

Tali: He called it investment in

772

:

Scott: investment in loss.

773

:

Tali: embracing loss.

774

:

Scott: I took it.

775

:

No, I took it as he's embracing loss.

776

:

That was my interpretation of it.

777

:

He, he was seeking that because he

knew that's how he would get better.

778

:

He intentionally.

779

:

What he would, those were the, he didn't

get better by just winning, right?

780

:

He didn't get better by

having things come easy.

781

:

All of his points where he got to the

next level were because he had a challenge

782

:

and he had to overcome that challenge.

783

:

It was the loss.

784

:

It was a distraction.

785

:

It was the feelings.

786

:

It was not being able to

focus, whatever it was.

787

:

I took it as he really embraces

it when he says, invest in loss.

788

:

Like he's saying, instead of

me getting mad about this.

789

:

Um, this is my fuel.

790

:

This is making me better.

791

:

Tali: he did describe it as

somebody when he would lose a game.

792

:

He described it as somebody

ripping the heart out of his

793

:

chest and stumping on it on

794

:

Scott: floor.

795

:

I would

796

:

Tali: call it embracing loss.

797

:

He literally is investing in loss so that

he can learn from loss so that he can win.

798

:

Scott: did he do after he did that though?

799

:

He didn't give up.

800

:

Tali: He didn't give up, but he

did, he did emphasize the importance

801

:

of stepping away from the game.

802

:

So he talked about his, his

family taking him fishing.

803

:

After big competitions, he would

just go on a boat and be on the

804

:

beach and chase, you know, run around

with the, the The kids who were, who

805

:

were there, they're his playmates.

806

:

And he was able to really fully step away.

807

:

And you know, when he said he would

come back from a competition, like some

808

:

famous world competition and his friends

at school would just say, how'd it go?

809

:

He'll say, I want to be like gay.

810

:

And then they will be

outside playing football.

811

:

You need that mental break

from this intensity of

812

:

Scott: and competing

813

:

Tali: learning and competing

and things like that.

814

:

And I think that's.

815

:

That's something that's important for

816

:

Scott: but he, but

817

:

Tali: know as well.

818

:

Scott: what, when I mean embrace

it, yes, he had that break.

819

:

He came back to it when he was

in a different, more calm state.

820

:

But he still went through the tapes.

821

:

He still went through his journal.

822

:

He still went through whatever

feedback he could get.

823

:

He didn't just take a break

and then come back and

824

:

Tali: No,

825

:

Scott: practicing.

826

:

He was, he

827

:

Tali: it.

828

:

He faced his losses.

829

:

He didn't shy away from his losses.

830

:

He learned from his, his losses.

831

:

And in that way he got

832

:

Scott: he got better.

833

:

Right.

834

:

And I don't think most people, I'm

trying to use his words, I don't

835

:

think most people would invest.

836

:

That time to rip apart in

great detail, their losses.

837

:

Most people would say they're

probably glad it's done.

838

:

What does he do?

839

:

He embraces it and he goes back and

says, I'm going to go work through this.

840

:

I'm going to figure out what happened.

841

:

And yeah, he had a lot of moments

where things didn't go his way,

842

:

but that's, I mean, that's part of

why this is an interesting read.

843

:

Tali: I can't remember who it was.

844

:

It might have been Zig Ziglar.

845

:

Uh, he's the sales coach and

the, the phrase goes like this.

846

:

If you want to, if you want to succeed

faster, you got to fail even faster.

847

:

Scott: Right.

848

:

Tali: If you want to succeed

fast, you got to fail even faster.

849

:

Scott: Right.

850

:

Yeah.

851

:

That, that to me is

investing in, in the loss.

852

:

So if you teach, if you teach

your kids that, or you learn that.

853

:

Then yeah, there's, you're not going to

go through life and not have setbacks.

854

:

So your, your choice is

what do you do about it?

855

:

Right.

856

:

And he, if you, if you read this

book and you're inspired, maybe

857

:

you can learn to invest in loss

and use it to make you yourself

858

:

better, use it to advance your goals.

859

:

So I'm just saying, that's how I took

it that he's embracing this thing.

860

:

That,

861

:

Tali: Okay.

862

:

So, so I would encourage.

863

:

For the homeschoolers out there, I would

encourage you to use living books like

864

:

this as much as possible because you can

have lots of really lively discussions

865

:

with your kids at the dinner table.

866

:

They will take away from it

what they need in that moment.

867

:

And the beauty of hearing lessons in

story form is that we remember them.

868

:

Because if you just give them a

lecture and you just give them the

869

:

nuggets, they're not going to remember.

870

:

But if you tell them the

story when they need it.

871

:

It'll come up for them.

872

:

So yeah, more living books.

873

:

Check out this one.

874

:

Scott: It's a

875

:

Tali: It's a great read.

876

:

And, um, I really think that

the family can have some

877

:

really interesting discussions.

878

:

Scott: really interesting discussions.

879

:

I think that is perfect advice.

880

:

Yeah, the more living books and then

having the discussions about them so that

881

:

you can actually get, you know, literally

have a human discussion, not be on there

882

:

just texting or whatever people do now.

883

:

So um, I think we wrap up right

there because that, that's what

884

:

I would take away from this thing

is if you don't, don't trust us,

885

:

verify, get the book yourself.

886

:

And if you don't, then get

a different living book.

887

:

But the concept of using them, like you

said, It's a huge, hugely effective way

888

:

of reaching others and making an impact.

889

:

Plus you get to learn some

pretty interesting stuff.

890

:

Well, thank you everybody

for, for joining us.

891

:

We'll be back next week until then.

892

:

See you, see you later.

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About the Podcast

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Tali Lindberg

Hey there, wonderful listeners! I'm Tali, and I'm so excited to welcome you to our podcast today. For two decades, I was knee-deep in the incredible journey of homeschooling my four amazing kids. It was a world of boundless creativity, filled with lesson plans, school projects, sports, and beautiful chaos. But when my children all graduated, a brand-new, unforeseen adventure awaited me - the captivating world of Bitcoin.

It took three years for Scott to bring me into Bitcoin. I hesitated at first, Bitcoin's intricacies seemed daunting, and my plate was already quite full. But he persisted, going so far as to create a fantastic bitcoin-mining board game called HODL UP to demystify it all. Before I knew it, I was down the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Just like my homeschooling journey, I took it one step at a time, learning and evolving as I ventured further.

Now, here we are today, and I couldn't be more thrilled to be part of the vibrant Bitcoin community. In an unexpected twist, my husband Scott and I realized that our homeschooling experiences can be a treasure trove of insights for Bitcoiners who, like us, want to take charge of their children's education. So, in addition to sharing our Bitcoin knowledge with Precoiners with HODL UP and the Orange Hatter podcast, we're here to offer tips and guidance for Bitcoin-homeschoolers. It's going to be an incredible journey, and I can't wait to share it with all of you. Enjoy the ride!
Profile picture for Scott Lindberg

Scott Lindberg

Scott Lindberg is a freedom-loving entrepreneur, author, and game designer. He is a proponent of finding freedom by taking self-custody of education, money and speech.

He and his wife, Tali, co-founded Free Market Kids. Their passion is to give the next generation the knowledge and tools to maximize their chances for freedom, success and happiness. Free Market Kids makes it easy and fun to introduce money concepts to kids through tabletop games, courses, lesson plans and trusted resources. They are best known for HODL UP™, a Bitcoin mining game.

Scott graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point in 1993 with a Bachelor of Science in Systems Engineering. In 2001, he graduated Yale’s School of Management with a Master of Business Administration.